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estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

Welcome BAFF!

Happy to see you here. Please go forth and talk about cante'. I know you yourself are a singer. I know you have a lot of knowledge about the Bacan family too and might have some questions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 4:49:27
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to BAFF

quote:

Another observation is that classic cante gitano, even when accompanied by guitar, does not usually have the oppressively square metronome compás that a lot people consider gospel.


I think the example I put of Borrico shows some of that. Correct me if I am wrong, but Borrico seems to come in and out of beginning lines in places that are not square.

Also perhaps you can say something about the way singer sing for dancers and they come in and out off the beat, and how they sing for the dancer to rematar.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 4:54:34
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

quote:


Another observation is that classic cante gitano, even when accompanied by guitar, does not usually have the oppressively square metronome compás that a lot people consider gospel.


Ole tu BAFF!
My teacher was taught through the Bacan family as well.

Is that observation in terms of solea only or all palos?
This is the great info and back and forth I had hoped for when Stephan started this thread.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 5:07:53

Piwin

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to BAFF

@BAFF

quote:

The video estebanana posted with Terremoto and Manuel Morao is a classic of Jerez style soleá where they are actually doing what folks outside of Jerez would probably call "soleá por bulerías" and which in Jerez is sometimes called "bulerías pa' escuchar."


Sorry about this but I'm going to throw all of my confusion your way and hope you can make sense of it
Is this Terremoto solea also what people call "bulerias al golpe" or is that something completely different?
Indeed, being from outside Jerez, this sounds like a solea por bulerias to my ears. A lot of the "usual" indicators point to that, such as the speed and the playing por medio. Where then does the difference lie between this kind of solea and a typical solea por bulerias? In the melody perhaps?

quote:

Another observation is that classic cante gitano, even when accompanied by guitar, does not usually have the oppressively square metronome compás that a lot people consider gospel.


Would you agree that there is some kind of gradation however from say, alegrias with baile all the way to palos libre. In my mind solea is somewhere in the middle, not following a square beat but also not as "flexible" as say a seguiriya. Dancers have already taken so flak in this thread so I hate to pile on, but isn't the trend towards a more "metronome-like" beat driven by dance accompaniment? (doesn't cante p'atras tend to me more "metronomish" than solo cante?)


@estebanana
quote:

BTW I put up the Juan Talega because it is so clear and straight forward. And the guitar of Eduardo del la Malena is a good one for those want to learn about roots cante' accompaniment. His playing is not filligree laden.


That's also why I picked that one to "break it down", it's just so clear (in a good way). The idea was just to go through some of the basic structure, hopefully someone out there got something out of it!


quote:

I was able to get to it today in the shop. Great Lenador. See this is what great I love to see this kind of aficion. It not always about how any modern falsetas you can learn, but we've put a lot of emphasis on that kind of thinking.


When I started learning flamenco guitar, I went to different people, teachers, schools, etc. I realized most of the teaching, and I think this is still the case today, was focused on falsetas. We use to call it the "falseta wall", this huge amount of falsetas that a teacher would throw at you and you'd just have to find a way to climb over it. You could learn them all but still not know how to piece them together nor have the slightest inkling of how to accompany. I suspect a lot of people have had a similar experience as it seems to be a rather widespread "problem" in how flamenco is taught.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 5:55:49
 
Leñador

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I suspect a lot of people have had a similar experience as it seems to be a rather widespread "problem" in how flamenco is taught.

Certainly outside of Spain that's true. I was lucky enough to find a teacher a few years in that basically said, "nice falsetas, now it's time to learn flamenco."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 6:17:14
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I think the example I put of Borrico shows some of that. Correct me if I am wrong, but Borrico seems to come in and out of beginning lines in places that are not square.


Tio Borrico was known for not letting the guitar decide much. Basically, what he often does is to enter on 10 instead of 1. Remember that many of these guys learned the letras while working in the fields and there was no guitar. They were hired to work in the fields during the season and the rest of the year they hang out and "worked" in the bars.
Players like Morao (el tio de moraito) and Parilla knew this and were prepared to "jump" compás. You can find videos where they sit and laugh (while playing) when El Borrico does this.
Its not considered to be very bad , but its definately not considered very good and not something that is being tought. On the contrary, its been used as examples of what you should not do.
Some of the local amateur singers that I played with did the same when they had had to much Fino and since I was and am lightyears from being Morao, we always ended out of compás. And it it was always considered my fault, which it was.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 7:51:19
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Tio Borrico was known for not letting the guitar decide much. Basically, what he often does is to enter on 10 instead of 1. Remember that many of these guys learned the letras while working in the fields and there was no guitar. They were hired to work in the fields during the season and the rest of the year they hang out and "worked" in the bars


Yeah today playing like that unintentionally would be a problem, but in the case of old video I find it more charming and a look into the past than see it as mistakes. Why I brought it up.

There is a Sabicas album where he plays an extra six in a solea solo and I remember a long long thread about that on the Temple list where some insisted he meant it and others just said he lapsed. I never really cared either way.

It is good to also get the drift out that in some areas compas is more elastic or slippery than in others areas. I think in Jerez certain palos can be very elastic, like siguiriya.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 8:07:23
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

quote:

When I started learning flamenco guitar, I went to different people, teachers, schools, etc. I realized most of the teaching, and I think this is still the case today, was focused on falsetas. We use to call it the "falseta wall", this huge amount of falsetas that a teacher would throw at you and you'd just have to find a way to climb over it. You could learn them all but still not know how to piece them together nor have the slightest inkling of how to accompany. I suspect a lot of people have had a similar experience as it seems to be a rather widespread "problem" in how flamenco is taught.


David Serva told me that if you want to learn to accompany you only need two or three good falsetas in each palo to start, and a hand full or two of endings and ways of playing compas like the 78910 parts of solea compas. He said if you can artfully vary the ways you play compas with the singer then keep up with is is a different skill set than straight up falsetas. I used to ask him how to play compas between lines of cante, but of course I was rereouted by guitar making at the same time I was learning abut that stuff.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 8:14:13
 
BAFF

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

@Ricardo et al
I can't log on to Norman's site anymore. Did he change the url again?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 8:48:26
 
orsonw

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to BAFF

canteytoque.es
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 13:20:18
 
orsonw

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

The cante dictates that it is solea the 'por buleria' part refers more to the accompanying.

When we talk about square compas it's not so much the regularity of the beats timing, more about singing across the compas e.g. entering in non typical places, phrasing that isn't so adherent to 3 6 8 10 12 etc.. Basically this means allowing a more free and emotional expression. Of course personal taste dictates when this is done well or not and so countless discussions and different opinions ensue.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 13:29:57
 
Leñador

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

When we talk about square compas it's not so much the regularity of the beats timing, more about singing across the compas e.g. entering in non typical places, phrasing that isn't so adherent to 3 6 8 10 12 etc.. Basically this means allowing a more free and emotional expression. Of course personal taste dictates when this is done well or not and so countless discussions and different opinions ensue.

Ahh yeah yeah, this I've heard before.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 13:58:37

Piwin

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to orsonw

@estebanana

quote:

David Serva told me that if you want to learn to accompany you only need two or three good falsetas in each palo to start, and a hand full or two of endings and ways of playing compas like the 78910 parts of solea compas. He said if you can artfully vary the ways you play compas with the singer then keep up with is is a different skill set than straight up falsetas.


That sounds spot-on. The impression I get though is that many "teachers" don't seem to consider accompanying a skill set at all, as if it's just so obvious that there's really no need to teach it. Personally when I hear a detail or some ornementation that I've never heard before, I try to work it out the same way I would a falseta, and when it comes to actually playing, the choice of ornementations, variations of basic compas, etc. is very similar to that of falsetas, plus perhaps a bit more improvisation in the way I play it. You don't need all that many to get by, but the more you have in your quiver, the more likely you are to have the one that just "fits" with the moment.


@orsonw

quote:

The cante dictates that it is solea the 'por buleria' part refers more to the accompanying.


Ok. So in the other name used for it, "buleria" refers to the accompaniment and "por solea" refers to the cante. Ugh. Why make it simple when one can make it so much more complicated...


quote:

When we talk about square compas it's not so much the regularity of the beats timing, more about singing across the compas e.g. entering in non typical places, phrasing that isn't so adherent to 3 6 8 10 12 etc.. Basically this means allowing a more free and emotional expression. Of course personal taste dictates when this is done well or not and so countless discussions and different opinions ensue.


Thanks, I must have misunderstood what BAFF was referring to. However, I would still be interested to know what you guys think about solea and where it ranks in terms of "regularity" of the beat. Solea is one of my favorite to accompany precisely because it's in the sweet spot between too mechanical and too "free". I have a harder time with the older guys and their seguiriyas where it's much close to palos libres than a solea usually is IMO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 16:39:20
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

To play for cante you dont need any falsetas at all. Just an intro. Falsetas are mainly just fill. Most singers like a little break if its a long letra, but to play more than one falseta is not really to well looked at.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 17:03:27
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

I personally found that the most complicated part of Cante por Solea is that the singers mix the letras. They may sing Alcala, Triana, Utrera and they wont know what they are going to sing when they start and they never tell you... So you have to know exactly the little hints in order to know what version you are supposed to accompany.
Its an enormous intellectual work to accompany cante flamenco. The singers they just yell, eat, discuss and drink, while we the players sit there all green in the face because of the concentration.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 17:08:09
 
Ricardo

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to BAFF

quote:

ORIGINAL: BAFF

I would like to participate in this discussion about cante por soleá. I haven't posted in this forum for years but I do still sing a bit of soleá from time to time.

The video estebanana posted with Terremoto and Manuel Morao is a classic of Jerez style soleá where they are actually doing what folks outside of Jerez would probably call "soleá por bulerías" and which in Jerez is sometimes called "bulerías pa' escuchar."

Another observation is that classic cante gitano, even when accompanied by guitar, does not usually have the oppressively square metronome compás that a lot people consider gospel.

If I have time, I'll post the lyrics later.


IMO, there are 3 ways to look at compas for cante accompaniment (Solea specifically, but we can generalize with some other forms).

1. Metronomic (steady tempo) plow through, let the cante lie loosely over the structure and catch tonos on 3 or 10 as they might come. That is most puro old school way to do it, practically dead now. Morao is doing this for Terremoto as would Montoya Ricardo Melchor etc.
2. Square box perfect fit melody to fit the BAILE. This is most common I see since the 70's. Guitar could almost pre record tonos or ignore the singer with this mind set and it all works out.
3. Elastic compas/moving tempo, which allows (forces IMO) to fit what was once the loose melody graft, INTO the box concept of number 2.

A good guitarist will have to decide which of the 3 situations above he/she is dealing with and do the appropriate thing or take flack for it.

About the Terremoto Morao vid....let me go from general to specific of what I am seeing.

1. Solea por buleria.
2. Two Jerezanos representing Solea de Jerez.
3. A mix of solea styles and bulerias, set to a relatively fast Solea por medio guitar accompaniment.
4. Some Solea from Utrera and Triana interpreted in that special Jerezano way, peppered by a couple buleria cortas.
5. Ok time for specifics.
First letra la Serneta 1, interpreted more like the connective flowing Manuel Torre way.
2nd letra is buleria corta.
3rd is serneta 6 but with that Frijones 2 high note (7th degree, it's normally only up to the 6th) at the start.
4th, another buleria corta
5th is La Andonda 1, again with that frijones high note delver to start.
6th remate por buleria major key.

Important to note the driving metronomic compas forcing Morao to deal with half compas remates often (resolve at count 3 instead of 10), yet no break of 12 beat cycle, and delvering every cambio in reverse (F-C7 instead of C7-F).

We could get more specific with lines of verse and strumming techniques and even those cool pulgar falsetas. I will leave it at the first lyric for the Serneta I have heard both Zambo (on Tomatito's solo guitar album Paseos de los castaños) and his "student" poveda (with Chicuelo qwwali and live video with Duquende) deliver that lyric por buleria. Good example how the buleria and Solea are related structurally.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 17:31:41
 
Leñador

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

How about if you're learning to actually sing cante? Seems like it'd be best to really stay on compas till you know what your doing.....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 19:41:59
 
Ricardo

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

How about if you're learning to actually sing cante? Seems like it'd be best to really stay on compas till you know what your doing.....


My advice to singer students, assuming you are serious about it and not just messing around, is to pick a letra you like, identify it as per Norman's site, then treat the letra as you would any complex falseta. Transcribe it note by note, every detail. Use the Amazing slow downer and adjust the key for your voice, slow it WAY down and get it EXACT, every detail. speed it up gradually until you can do it at proper tempo. Sing along with original if you can get the pitch (octave below can work), then try to do it with compas loop or metronome by yourself. Finally, if you ever want to sing in public instead of in the shower, record yourself and be critical about 3 things:

1. Is it correct? Is it how the actual song goes or do you still have discrepencies (actual notes and rhythms) to the original you try to copy?
2. Do you sound authentic? If not, what's the problem? What would you need to change? Accent? Vocal quality? Key? Expression?
3. Is it good? Do you like it? Would you actually say this is a good example of cante?

If you can't say yes to all 3 I would stick to singing in the shower. Of course if you just want to have aficion I guess no 3 is a tall order. Unfortunately we already have too many "singers" who think they are the sh1t already and love themselves without having no. 1 down yet.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 20:12:54
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

My advice to singer students, assuming you are serious about it and not just messing around, is to pick a letra you like, identify it as per Norman's site,

Is that because those are like.......I guess archetypes would be the word......???

I'm assuming there would be specific letras from specific cantaores that you wouldn't want to copy as a new student because it's kind of........too unique, breaks too many "rules" and without deeper understanding of why you wouldn't want to make that your "first solea" let's say??

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 20:23:47
 
Ricardo

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leñador

quote:

My advice to singer students, assuming you are serious about it and not just messing around, is to pick a letra you like, identify it as per Norman's site,

Is that because those are like.......I guess archetypes would be the word......???

I'm assuming there would be specific letras from specific cantaores that you wouldn't want to copy as a new student because it's kind of........too unique, breaks too many "rules" and without deeper understanding of why you wouldn't want to make that your "first solea" let's say??


There is no real bare bones skeleton, just different interpretations. So the reason you need to id it is so you have a reference for what the hell you are learning. Like learning a falseta, it's good to know who first played it, even if you are doing Diego del Morao's version. Later on you will compare what you know to variations. It could be that the one specific version you are learning has a unique detail, or is special compared to the norm, or has a challenging twist other versions don't have. Doesn't matter so long as YOU understand in context what's going on.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 20:30:18
 
Leñador

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

Got it got it got it. Thanks again!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 20:44:33
 
Richard Jernigan

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
2. Do you sound authentic? If not, what's the problem? What would you need to change? Accent? Vocal quality? Key? Expression?
Ricardo


On recordings at least, both payos and gitanos from the 1920s sang with a much more standard Spanish accent than the leading cantaores did in say, the 1950s: Caracol and Mairena, for example.

Unfortunately we don't know how Pastora Pavon sounded in person while singing. I have heard a few fragments of recorded interviews where she sounds fairly different from what I have heard recently while staying in Triana, though there are far fewer gitanos per capita in Triana now than when I first visited 50 years ago.

Bessie Smith sounds much closer to standard American than does Muddy Waters. Maybe the differences in accent just reflect what the record companies thought would sell?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 21:11:02
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Richard Jernigan

My point about accent is more about the detail of copying the original than what might be more correct.

For example if you copy Camaron "era morenit-ay pro-bay"... But change it to "era morenita y pobre", then you are probably also missing musical details that are tied to that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 21:39:50
 
Richard Jernigan

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Richard Jernigan

The Juan Talega/Eduardo el de la Malena soleares posted by estebanana near the beginning of this thread was transcribed and analyzed by Carol Whitney in the June 1974 edition of Soundboard. Ricardo cited this as an informative source. The transcription and analysis only covers the first two of the three coplas. Coincidentally this is as far as Piwin goes in his post above.

The transcription is reproduced in very small print in the journal. It's in standard notation, not cifra. Resizing it to 800 pixels would render it completely illegible, so here are links to scans of the three pages on my flickr.com account:

http://tinyurl.com/jfhjl2x
http://tinyurl.com/hmpocdc
http://tinyurl.com/h6r6phr

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 21:55:52
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

My point about accent is more about the detail of copying the original than what might be more correct.

For example if you copy Camaron "era morenit-ay pro-bay"... But change it to "era morenita y pobre", then you are probably also missing musical details that are tied to that.


Thanks for the clarification. I should respond with one of my own. I was not suggesting there was any "correct" accent, merely observing that on recordings at least, the predominant accent had changed.

Indeed it is my impression (backed by no systematic evidence) that along with the change in predominant accent, within a given palo there was a greater elaboration of the vocal line, both in melody and in timbre.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2016 3:58:10
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

That's very nice Richard.

This thread is becoming denser and denser with good nuggets of information. I think this is important because I see talk groups becoming decadent and unfocused after many years, our thrill of the internet is over. We can go back to things we learned about a long time ago and see new things in them and for the pros to jump in an add guidance and deeper understanding of the mechanics of this subject is great.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2016 7:07:22
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Leñador

quote:

How about if you're learning to actually sing cante? Seems like it'd be best to really stay on compas till you know what your doing.....


Remember to learn the lelele or ayyy.. It is very important.
A siguiriya without ay is really nothing.

All what Ricardo wrote is good and important. making recordings/videos is very important and sharing with others is very good. It helps focus on what you do.

I had a classical violin teacher back in the 80th that very correctly told me that there is a big difference in hearing what you play/sing and what you believe you play/sing. According to him, the huge majority does the last and thats why they dont progress.
Thats when i bought my first sony casette recorder and was ruined for 3 month. And thats why i uploaded my fiddle stuff on the off-topic section when it was still here.

So keep on being brave and upload your singing here. We need you.
Also when you have some letras and if you have the chance, go to Spain and try to find a peña with a relaxed atmosphere.
The peña I was member of in Huelva, (La peña el higueral) some of the amateur singers got together saturday afternoon. They would love to hear you sing and would be very helpfull. So helpfull that they would all talk and discuss very loudly and fill you with Fino, Rioja, chorizo y queso, so that you would get all dizzy and forget what you had learnt.

_____________________________

See the guitars I have for sale here:
http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com.es/p/guitars-for-sale.html

Fine flamenco and classical guitars: www.eliassonguitars.com
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2016 8:01:45

Piwin

 

Posts: 2349
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 4 2016 8:05:01
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2016 9:25:51
 
Leñador

Posts: 5229
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

So keep on being brave and upload your singing here. We need you.
Also when you have some letras and if you have the chance, go to Spain and try to find a peña with a relaxed atmosphere.
The peña I was member of in Huelva, (La peña el higueral) some of the amateur singers got together saturday afternoon. They would love to hear you sing and would be very helpfull. So helpfull that they would all talk and discuss very loudly and fill you with Fino, Rioja, chorizo y queso, so that you would get all dizzy and forget what you had learnt.

Thanks Anders, my desire to sing is really just, one, because it's fun, and two, develop a greater understanding and appreciation of the art. I have no dilutions of thinking I'll ever be good at it but that's very fine with me, I just want to understand it and for me the best way is to try and do it. A few years ago I watched a Paco Cepero interview and he basically said "any good guitarist really just wants to be a singer." And it kind of stuck with me.

That Peña sounds amazing!! Looking like I'll be getting back there next year :/ likely around Lebrija where I have the most connections...

Nice vids Piwin!!

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2016 12:43:30
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 2851
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

This thread is becoming denser and denser with good nuggets of information. I think this is important because I see talk groups becoming decadent and unfocused after many years, our thrill of the internet is over. We can go back to things we learned about a long time ago and see new things in them and for the pros to jump in an add guidance and deeper understanding of the mechanics of this subject is great.


And you are to be commended for bringing the subject up, Stephen. In doing so, you have managed to elicit the engagement of a wider group of Foro members than I can recall being engaged on a particular topic in a long time. Bravo!

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2016 16:34:32
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