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RE: All the Solea   You are logged in as Guest
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Piwin

Posts: 2353
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Anders Eliasson

Yeah you're right. But isn't this one of those problems with the semantics used in flamenco where personal in fandango personal means something else than personal in solea personal? But you're right, I didn't pay attention to the fact that he was talking about fandango so there's probably less of a parallel than I thought. The only point I was making is was trying to make is that certain forms of solea have been attributed to people and not to régions (but yes at least with soleares personales, they are "strict" forms that you are supposed to follow closely, though of course, as usual, nobody agrees on anything...). What would you call a fandango con compas attributed to a person? Is there such a thing?

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L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 12:51:55
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Yes it would be something of a "solea personal". In some cases, the personal version of one singer implies different chord patterns for the accompanyist (for instance a Malaguena del Mellizo has a distinct chord transition that other malaguenas don't have) and this is due to of course the distinct melody that the singer is singing. In some cases, the regional version of solea is almost synonymous with a certain personal version of solea. For instance, IMO solea de Lebrija (regional) is basically solea de Juaniqui (personal). It gets even stranger when a singer is singing in his own distinct way a version of a solea already attributed to another person...Will that singer one day get his own name to stick to his way of singing? It's all very hazy sometimes.


Like for example in another palo Cantinas del Pinini. From Cadiz rerouted through Utrera.
I feel more flamenco already knowing others want to takl about this stuff.

BTW I put up the Juan Talega because it is so clear and straight forward. And the guitar of Eduardo del la Malena is a good one for those want to learn about roots cante' accompaniment. His playing is not filligree laden.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 13:25:04
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

I did a lesson with Juan Bacan(Pedro's brother) and he was trying to teach me a solea, I was failing miserably but I asked him where it was from and he just said "It's a family solea". How many of those do you think are just floating out there? Likely less than before....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 13:57:05
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Leñador

quote:

I did a lesson with Juan Bacan(Pedro's brother) and he was trying to teach me a solea, I was failing miserably but I asked him where it was from and he just said "It's a family solea". How many of those do you think are just floating out there? Likely less than before....


That clan has a fair amount of stuff they do that is almost unique to them. They also have some connection to the Utrera folks you can look into.
Ines' Siguiriya is from her dad Bastian and the Solea por Buleria she sings has a mix of standard stuff a few family twists and a funny change switch places of the C and F chords. I can find that one tomorrow. That family also sings a thing called Fandango por Solea. There is less and less family passed on material, but the Lebrija families still harbor that. Ask Ethan about the Lebrija stuff he knows it pretty well.

I knowless about Jerez but ask Ricardo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 14:23:57
 
RobJe

 

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From: UK

RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

I have just realised that the examples Stephen has given were all in their prime when I started playing in 1958 – apart from Camarón who was just a child. It is worth saying that this is a long way in time from the origins of Solea which was already being influenced by commercial considerations – hence the attempts to capture something that might be lost by the various anthologies that ensued.

My experience when I started to play for singers in London from about 1962 is that Solea was certainly faster in public performance. I had always thought that this was due to the demands of dancers trying to emulate Carmen Amaya! Certainly I remember more private moments of much slower stuff.

Many singers had arrived in London to escape problems in Spain. Among the problems I remember are escaping from Franco, escaping from parents and in-laws trying to restore a broken marriage, escaping from Spain’s dire economic conditions and trying to find a more tolerant climate on issues of sexuality.

Singers often came to London with precious piles of 78 rpm records. The LP was only about 10 years into its remarkable life. Domestic tape recorders were available but not universally owned. I have the impression that in Spain the family played an important part in passing down letras and styles. I used to collect Juan Garcia de Linares from a Rackman (criminal slum landlord) flat in Notting Hill Gate to take him to rehearsals. He lived there with his mother and I often had to push the door open and search for him. Sometimes the pair of them were in bed watching TV (only to escape the extreme cold I assure you!) and sometimes he was checking letras with her. She was his link to the flamenco past in Spain. His old and gentle Solea (I can’t bring detail to my mind anymore) came under attack from dancers who wanted something more zippy like Domingo Alvorado on a Carmen Amaya recording. He didn’t want to do it but his mother was pushing him – money was short!

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 14:24:21

Morante

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

quote:

What would you call a fandango con compas attributed to a person? Is there such a thing?


Never heard of José Rebollo, José Rengél or Toronjo, etc????
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 15:09:11

Morante

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

That family also sings a thing called Fandango por Solea


Quite common. Marìa was the mother of Santiago.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 15:29:43

Piwin

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Morante

quote:

Never heard of José Rebollo or Toronjo, etc????


Are you suggesting some kind of answer to my question or not? Are these also called fandangos personales? In the meantime, I'd get all of those extra question marks out of your system now because you'll be amazed at how much I do NOT know.

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L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 15:29:55

Morante

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Are these also called fandangos personales?


Yes
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 15:36:26

Piwin

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Morante

Ok. Thanks!

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L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 15:40:36

Morante

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin



Paco es único and has a real genio on guitar. José Lepe plays, sings and composes.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 15:57:06
 
BarkellWH

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From: Washington, DC

RE: All the Solea (in reply to DavRom

quote:

development of cante? is this thread really about cante? All the Solea...you said, "Let's go back to the roots and chart out a new thread about this old important form."


Solea' arguably is the mother of flamenco palos, and cante is the mother and origin of Solea' and, indeed, of flamenco. This thread is not just "about cante," but if we are going "back to the roots" of Solea' we cannot ignore cante. Before there was guitar accompaniment and baile, there was cante. Guitar and baile followed. If we are going back to the roots and following up on Solea's historical development, we cannot ignore cante.

Bill

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 16:28:15
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

Morante...
Be carefull with calling Rebollo and Rengel fandangos personales with compás. Toronjo the same.
They are all Fandangos de Huelva personales. Rebollo and Rengel have their style, which is closely related to Fandangos de Huelva Capital, while Toronjo is more related to fandangos de Alosno.
I have never worked much with fandangos personales de Toronjo, but the other two, yes and its very difficult to accompany so when playing in the paña, I normally left it to someone else to play those palos. Its not compás like fandangos de Huelva and its not libre like fandangos personales. You have to know the song and the singer pretty well. be 'libre' here and there and a bit of compás for a while etc. Its a very "lightweight" style. All fandangos de Huelva capital are pretty light, but these two even more.

Well, now we are getting very off topic. But since i live in the Huelva province and..... blah blah

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 16:32:43
 
Ricardo

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

While I am all for the topic getting back to hardcore flamenco, I must admit nothing so far we can do will be better than as Norman layed em all out with examples for Solea here:
http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm

I know Orson posted it but it is THE iceburg where as the rest being discussed is the tip. Sorry to be one dimensional about it. All questions of style rhythm length WHO composed it, what region, etc etc, all there very clearly mapped out.

About guitar influencing cante, sure in the modern times. I have to say first, BAILE forced the Solea more into a box and made it ridiculous slow to the point that moder singers often view the old way of singing "too fast and out of compas" ....which is just wrong but such is evolution. As far as guitar solo, not much changed with por Arriba until Siroco, which opened finally a door to exploring other keys within the form. Modern young payers (at that time) took the torch to introduce new tonalities completely (Nunez Taranta Solea por buleria, V. Amigo D# Solea and Solea por buleria etc), and finally force willing singers to either sings normally over their new tonalities (Tomatito Diego Cigala, Diego del Morao Montes Cortez), or Learn new composed melodies "por Solea" (Vicente amigo, Jose Merce, M. Sanlucar and various singers etc). I would say things sort of have slowed down with Picasso esque Solea remnants of guitar solo playing like Gerardo Nunez Solea in D via Rondeña tuning (slow and dance based) and Diego del Morao's C# Solea in a modified Rondeña tuning (again same stuff with Montse Cortez, up tempo "por buleria")....but by no means does it need to stop here.

I feel there is room for both to evolve, but with no help from the orthodox dance form that might constrict both guitar and cante if it's not pointed out there used to be some freedoms.

(I wanted to point out in Noman's examples, the so called "Jerez anonymous" Solea is pretty much just what we think of, as working pros, as the most typical buleria extremeño/Jaleos song form. There might be a special way to play guitar to these, see the cante accompaniment thread for examples)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 16:45:19
 
DavRom

 

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From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

examples for Solea here:
http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm


nice!

thx for posting
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 19:36:21
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

I love Normans site 'cus every year or so I go back to it with new eyes, just peeked and realized it's been too long. Need to run through again.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 22:55:37
 
Kevin

 

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Soleá de Alcalá - Diego Clavel (in reply to Piwin

I have some questions Norman, if you don't mind.

Some of these cantes are mislabeled. For audio go here:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=290314&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#290314

The first track is all labeled as Joaquin de la paula but not specifically, plus the remate "Andan diciendo..."
The second track includes cantes of Juan, La Roesna and Agustin Talega but these are not labled either.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 1:09:53
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

Alright, we may be a little scattered. I'd love to kind of help make Normans site less encyclopedic and more beginner friendly.
Far as I understand we've got the regions.
Alcala
Cadiz
Cordoba
Jerez
Lebrija
Triana
Utrera

Should we start alphabetically? Or most popular?
This is the first Solea I learned to accompany and the only one I can sing terribly while I play.
Muy bonito!

Muy feo! lol


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 2:23:32
 
Dudnote

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Ricardo

Great stuff Lenny!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
While I am all for the topic getting back to hardcore flamenco, I must admit nothing so far we can do will be better than as Norman layed em all out with examples for Solea here:
http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm

True. But it's hard to hang out, discuss and get enthusiastic with other foro members on Norman's site.

Here's Manolo Caracol


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Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 2:37:26
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

Gracias!
Ay! Que bueno! Pero de donde viene este Solea???

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 3:11:08

Piwin

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Morante

Thanks for the link and info Morante. I'll definitely be listening more to this.

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L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 8:13:14
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

Cooool
You are a brave man Lenny.
But i miss the lelele intro. A soleá without is like alcoholfree wine.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 15:41:04
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

Great stuff Lenny!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
While I am all for the topic getting back to hardcore flamenco, I must admit nothing so far we can do will be better than as Norman layed em all out with examples for Solea here:
http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm

True. But it's hard to hang out, discuss and get enthusiastic with other foro members on Norman's site.


Well, the point being if someone can take the time to cut and paste a YouTube vid of Solea, they should next try to list the Solea styles that match up with the examples on Normans site. Like Kevin just did above...although we don't need to necessarily act like ONLY NORMAN understands it and pretend the rest of us don't exist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 16:07:05
 
Escribano

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From: England

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

Cooool
You are a brave man Lenny.


Agreed. Keep going!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 16:17:11

Morante

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Leñador



Cádiz.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 17:23:09
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

quote:

You are a brave man Lenny.
But i miss the lelele intro. A soleá without is like alcoholfree wine.

Believe me when I say I did you all a favor.
quote:


Agreed. Keep going!

Thank you sir! Need to learn another letra......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 17:52:02
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Well, the point being if someone can take the time to cut and paste a YouTube vid of Solea, they should next try to list the Solea styles that match up with the examples on Normans site. Like Kevin just did above...although we don't need to necessarily act like ONLY NORMAN understands it and pretend the rest of us don't exist.

We need Normans site AND people like you. Although organized really well and very informative we can't interact with Normans site but with knowledgable people we can ask questions and discuss further.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 17:58:00
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

I would do more but I have limited bandwidth in my shop and it takes forever to stream video. Soon I will find time with a high bandwidth connection and look at Lenny's videos. At home I can't really sit there and everyone else and play music and nerd out so I have wait until the cell phone traffic is low at night and pick up leaking wifi from a near by cafe. That why my grammar and spelling is messed up, I never know when the connection will cut out and post as soon as my idea is down.

That is also why I have not taken video lessons with yu Ricado, the connection is too shaky. Not reliably wide enough band to support more than non vid skype calls most of the time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2016 23:35:01
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Leñador

quote:

Muy feo! lol


I was able to get to it today in the shop. Great Lenador. See this is what great I love to see this kind of aficion. It not always about how any modern falsetas you can learn, but we've put a lot of emphasis on that kind of thinking.

Yesterday I was listening to the Nuevo Flamenco podcast and Pepe Habicuela play for Chaqueton, thinking the opening falsetas of the siguirya he played were crazy good. Very well, and we can all talk about learning a falseta together. But I like your video because we all can't get in the same room and practice or share cante' accompaniment with each other either. I appreciate seeing your video because it rounds out the Foro experience to include a very old and honored form of aficion, to show each other letras and song forms.

Of course I love the guitar, I stand in cypress saw dust every day, it's on my clothes when I take them off at night. I get told often "You smell like wood". The thought that the Foro become a space for guitar jockery only worries me. With all due respect to guitar players I think we need to carve out some more space for the kind of thing Lenny is doing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 0:59:24
 
BAFF

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

I would like to participate in this discussion about cante por soleá. I haven't posted in this forum for years but I do still sing a bit of soleá from time to time.

The video estebanana posted with Terremoto and Manuel Morao is a classic of Jerez style soleá where they are actually doing what folks outside of Jerez would probably call "soleá por bulerías" and which in Jerez is sometimes called "bulerías pa' escuchar."

Another observation is that classic cante gitano, even when accompanied by guitar, does not usually have the oppressively square metronome compás that a lot people consider gospel.

If I have time, I'll post the lyrics later.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2016 3:22:54
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