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All the Solea   You are logged in as Guest
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estebanana

 

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All the Solea 

Let's go back to the roots and chart out a new thread about this old important form.

Ready?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 5:16:39
 
Grisha

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

What do you have in mind?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 5:44:12
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

Let's start with Cante' por Solea and work backwards and forwards at the same time.

Here is Terremoto, with some real good out front guitar accomanipment.

I want to talk about all styles of Solea from earliest recordings until today focusing these things:

*On identifying the style of Solea, where it came from when possible.

*The main singers associated with regional styles in the old days.

*Comments about taste and technique for accompaniment and past schools of thought on accopaniment of cante.

*Terms defined- example what is a collatilla, a contestacion, etc. To help those new to cante accompaniment understand the language around cante.

*Talk about letras and get help from those Foro members fluent in Andaluz Spanish to understand the letras better.

* To have the Mother of all Threads about the Mother of all Cante!

* Stay on topic regarding everything Solea, and touching on playing for dancers as much as that is possible in the context of the Solea cante.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 6:00:34
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

Without a starting place that comes to mind I begin this with what I feel like hearing today. Let's just listen and see where it takes us:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 6:12:46
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

Juan Talega with Eduardo de la Malena



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 6:21:13
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

Niña de los Peines

- Un día era yo la alegría de mi casa




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 6:25:06
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

The Wonder Twins:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 6:30:17
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

The great Fernanda with Marote'




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 6:35:40
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

Fernanda with Pedro Bacan, a personal favorite combo.

Left out two hundred other singers who sing por solea, we can talk about many of them, and their guitar players and careers, strengths ....




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 6:42:30

Piwin

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 7:57:08
 
DavRom

 

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From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
I want to talk about all styles of Solea from earliest recordings until today focusing these things:


sounds interesting for sure, but why no mention of solo guitar and the development of soleá? (how solo guitar has contributed to its development)

after all it seems to me (in the short time i've been learning about such things) that much of the modern development of soleá, or any palo, has been guitar driven

not to say i'm not interested in the roots and early development
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 8:13:05
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

The trend has been to make the Foro Guitar-o-Cenrtic and over a long period of time this has caused many aficionados to see the foro as guitar website.

Cante' happens with or without a guitar, and the development of cante' is not really guitar driven. At least as I understand it in our current era of recorded music. Before recording the structure of cante may or may not have been influenced by guitar, but since the first recordings not so much. As far as I know, there are a few exceptions.

The development of different styles of accompaniment has been traditionally a regional happening or phenomena and later accompaniment of palos has been influenced by solo playing and outside influences. Regions like Jerez, Lebrija, Moron, Sevilla, Granada, Huelva, have had associations with styles of guitar playing that work with the way cante' is sung in those regions. Madrid is more of a melting pot historically because guitarists, dancers and singers would converge on Madrid from different regions to work and record. Often were put together by producers of both performances and recordings. These artists might not other wise have met in their respective regions. Sometimes these parings of singer to guitarist for recording dates were better "marriages" than others.

A good artistic marriage is the pairing of Marote' with Fernanda, who recorded together in the early 1970s, and resulted in an album that is considered a classic modern recording by many aficionados. A later example would be the pairing of Ines Bacan with Moraito, it made a very nice record, but someting that many aficinados felt was a bit forced in feeling because it matches a deep Jerez feelign in guitar and palmas with Ines Bacan who really needs a specific kind of Lebrija accompaniment to really do her thing. Far from a disaster, the album is great, but not totally satisfying in that way. After Ines' brother Pedro died, Antonio Moya stepped in and understood the Lebrija aire and recorded with that group of singers.

These are just examples, and not the end of the story, but it seem like the heavy emphasis on the Foro is for guitar and I think it is time to reevaluate why we like, love, need flamenco as a whole and not just hyper focus on the guitar. The professional guitar player here have a lot to say on the other half of thier playing which is working with dancers and singers. I hope they will join the conversation, in this group they have some of the deepest knowledge of the cante' itself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 9:18:16
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

quote:

There are many different types of solea. Some refer to geographic locations, such as Solea de Triana, Solea de Lebrija, Solea de Alcala, Solea de Cordoba, etc. while others refer to a specific person who is believed to have been the originator of the specific kind of solea: Solea de Paquirri, Solea de la Serneta, Solea del Charamusco, etc.
Each type of solea has its own characteristics. What makes it even more difficult to identify what kind of solea is being sung is the fact that it is quite possible for a singer to mix several styles of solea together, for instance starting with a "smooth" solea (say Solea de Alcala) and then moving on to a stronger more "valiente" solea (say Solea de Cadiz).


Off to a good start. There is a lot of information in your post to parse through. I won't go into all of it because there is a lot to unravel and look at.

I will ask a question and we will see what happens. I honestly don't have an answer that is perfectly clear to me, but on the idea of Solea associated with one person at the time they sang it would it be thought of as a 'Solea Personal'? I think for example Chocolate has a way of singing fandangos that seems he has a 'fandangos personal' maybe more about the delivery. There is the idea of Solea regional is there are the idea of Solea Personal?

And I just realized all this might get to sounding really amateur flamencologo, so feel free to throw into passionate fist pounding, just not directed at others.

I hope a wide range of questions will be asked from beginner to expert. Don't be too cool for school.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 9:51:33
 
Escribano

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

it seem like the heavy emphasis on the Foro is for guitar and I think it is time to reevaluate why we like, love, need flamenco as a whole and not just hyper focus on the guitar.


Straying off-topic a little that might be another thread in the making, so I apologise.

My explanation is that the guitar is an international instrument with a long history of (mostly) guys in their bedroom appropriating the guitar styles of other cultures e.g. jazz, gypsy, blues, cuban, brazilian bossa nova, argentinian tango, English heavy metal and flamenco etc.

The guitar is physically much more accessible, especially when you are on your own, whereas flamenco has traditionally been a group activity of cante and guitar. Indeed, it is often informally just cante with some palmas and probably was so for many years before the Spanish guitar was adopted.

When I was learning rock and blues guitar, joining a band opened my eyes to our individual responsibility that made me a cog in a machine e.g. one didn't often play lead guitar all over the singer. The drums and bass were a rhythm unit of their own and are not diverted from the tempo, ever. In fact, I moved from guitar to bass as I realised the power of this unit.

However, when I started to learn flamenco guitar, inspired by a solo Habichuela soleá, I visited Jerez and learned the role of the guitar, up close. I have said before that a solo guitar is practically ignored in the peñas but complete silence descends when a canteor starts up with their story. In my opinion (and it is just an opinion) flamenco is the communal sharing of stories and this might make an interesting separate thread.

Very few of us can sing a soleá whilst playing the guitar - unlike the blues, for example. We can't do palmas at the same time, or dance. So outside of a knowledgable group environment, mostly in Spain, it is almost impossible to take on the genuine role of the guitar in flamenco.

There also the huge technical side to this. Many of use have come from other guitar backgrounds and realise that flamenco guitar is really difficult and cannot resist the challenge. I gave up a couple of years ago as I did not have the time to practise for hours a day, but I might dabble again, one day.

You can browse new guitars for hours, but it's not so easy to buy a voice or a palmero. An analogy is that when I get a decent image out of a camera, by looking, watching the light and knowing how to compose. The first question I am asked is "what kind of camera did you use?"

Solo guitar was really developed by PdL into mass, international entertainment. Cante is much less acceptable to an international audience. Dancing more so, in a theatrical setting.

When I was pretty good at soleáres, I played a little at a party in the UK and plenty of people said that was not what they considered to be flamenco. They were expecting the Gypsy Kings but that is another discussion.

So let's remember the role guitar plays in flamenco and pay homage. Keep it up.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 10:05:50
 
DavRom

 

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From: De camino a Sevilla

RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
Cante' happens with or without a guitar, and the development of cante' is not really guitar driven.


development of cante? is this thread really about cante? All the Solea...you said, "Let's go back to the roots and chart out a new thread about this old important form."

quote:

but it seem like the heavy emphasis on the Foro is for guitar and I think it is time to reevaluate why we like, love, need flamenco as a whole and not just hyper focus on the guitar.


it seems to me the guitar has been a huge influence on the development of any palo and glossing over that fact is not conducive to understanding the development of soleá in particular

like it or not flamenco guitar has obviously led many to this forum. what this forum was originally intended to be and what it has become cannot be controlled by anyone, even our fearless leader Escribano

but that is not my concern. to speak about the development of flamenco without talking about the influence of the guitar seems like sticking one's head in the sand for the sake of some other superfluous agenda
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 10:07:24

Piwin

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 10:19:38
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

Its a very interesting idea.
The initial post is VERY broad and basically more than what is covered by normal flamenco players and singers. But well, why shoot low when you can shoot high. The flamecologos study these things and use years or a life on it. Its very profound.

I have played a handfull of different Soleá with local singers (Alcala, Jerez, Utrera, Triana, Lebrija etc.) But it was before my wife was diagnosed motorneurone desease 6 years ago and honestly I have totally forgotten.

Diego Clavel has made a double CD where he covers a lot of different versions of Soleá. Its not the best singer or players, but its definately not bad either and gives a good idea of the subject. Its called "Por Soleá, Diego Clavel"
http://www.deflamenco.com/tienda/producto/cds-de-flamenco/por-solea-2-cd.html

And finally one of my favorite Jerez singers por Soleá de Jerez (besides Tio Borrico)

The guitarist is not bad either.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 10:22:41

Piwin

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I will ask a question and we will see what happens. I honestly don't have an answer that is perfectly clear to me, but on the idea of Solea associated with one person at the time they sang it would it be thought of as a 'Solea Personal'? I think for example Chocolate has a way of singing fandangos that seems he has a 'fandangos personal' maybe more about the delivery. There is the idea of Solea regional is there are the idea of Solea Personal?


Yes it would be something of a "solea personal". In some cases, the personal version of one singer implies different chord patterns for the accompanyist (for instance a Malaguena del Mellizo has a distinct chord transition that other malaguenas don't have) and this is due to of course the distinct melody that the singer is singing. In some cases, the regional version of solea is almost synonymous with a certain personal version of solea. For instance, IMO solea de Lebrija (regional) is basically solea de Juaniqui (personal). It gets even stranger when a singer is singing in his own distinct way a version of a solea already attributed to another person...Will that singer one day get his own name to stick to his way of singing? It's all very hazy sometimes.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 10:32:47

Piwin

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to DavRom

quote:

it seems to me the guitar has been a huge influence on the development of any palo and glossing over that fact is not conducive to understanding the development of soleá in particular


You're right but to an extent. There are many different aspects of solea that guitar has simply not affected at all (verse structure for instance, written poetry of soleas). I think estabanana is right in saying that the changes in cante haven't been driven by guitar, or at least very little. You could argue though that the advent of solo guitar did affect how solea was sung and accompanied. Since solo guitar tends to have more virtuoso in it than accompanying, it has led to a more complexe and adorned way of singing and accompanying solea whereas the traditional (pre solo-guitar) solea was more sober. Though this is really just speculation on my part.

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L'homme qui trouve douce sa patrie est encore un tendre débutant ; celui pour lequel tout sol est comme son sol natal est déjà fort ; mais celui-ci est parfait pour qui le monde entier est comme un pays étranger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 10:40:31
 
Escribano

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to DavRom

quote:

to speak about the development of flamenco without talking about the influence of the guitar seems like sticking one's head in the sand for the sake of some other superfluous agenda


I just see an attempt to de-emphasise solo guitar for a while. So, why do you think that it has driven the development of the palo (which includes cante and dance)? In accompaniment, I can kind of grasp its influence, but as a solo performance art, I am not so clear, it has not been around very long. I agree that it may have some subliminal and fashionable affect but do you have an example that I can grasp?

I am not qualified to have a firm opinion on this subject, so I paraphrase the late Robin Totton, a respected Flamencologist with whom I had a few copas in London and Jerez.

quote:

Even the playing of guitar solos is a fairly modern development, and more often heard outside Andalusia than in: its music is based on the song and the accompanying falsetas the guitarist plays to introduce the song and between verses. Furthermore, the solo guitar remains flamenco only insofar as it stays faithful to the character of the song... The solo instrument either conveys [the dramatic expressions of extreme emotion in the song] or else weaves a delicate filigree round it

- Song of the Outcasts , 2003


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 10:55:50
 
RobJe

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Let's go back to the roots and chart out a new thread about this old important form.


Even if we are mainly a bunch of guitarists it is good to get in touch with our roots which is certainly el cante.

Let's leave until later the interaction between guitar and singing - and don't forget Paco de Lucia thought he was imitating the song.

Just to get the minor rule of the guitar clear here is a poster from 1964. I can guess who these guitarists were - and they were not unkowns.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 11:14:19
 
Escribano

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From: England

RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

I would tend to agree and it makes sense that solo masters have established some kind of pressure on the accompanist to embellish their falsetas, which can drive the singer nuts at times because they can go on too long and mess up the emotional dynamic

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 11:15:09
 
Escribano

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From: England

RE: All the Solea (in reply to RobJe

quote:

Let's leave until later the interaction between guitar and singing - and don't forget Paco de Lucia thought he was imitating the song.


Good idea. This thread might need some editing to get it more readable and move these interesting ideas to another thread. I'll have a look later.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 11:17:11
 
orsonw

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From: London

RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I will ask a question and we will see what happens. I honestly don't have an answer that is perfectly clear to me, but on the idea of Solea associated with one person at the time they sang it would it be thought of as a 'Solea Personal'?


Under the regional classification comes the personal classification.

Don't forget Norman's great resource:

http://canteytoque.es/soleares.htm

Hope I am not going off topic now:

One of the critisms of modern cante is that younger singers copy rather than create but at some point all the classic solea cante was created by someone. The younger ones start of course with the tradition but then don't seem to have the inspiration or aren't given the creative freedom to explore further- especially cante jondo. For me I don't mind if a modern singer is being traditional as long as they are being emotionally genuine and singing with their own voice.

Despite the guitar dominance of the foro, dance is the most popular form of flamenco performance outside Spain. This has meant singers sing for dance and that means they sing very slow tempo and square, (as Ricardo has so often pointed out). This has perhaps led to a decline in creativity in cante. Guitar and dance have become more and more adventurous but cante not.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 11:22:25

Piwin

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Escribano

And there's nothing worse than seeing the singer take a deep breath to start singing again and then be cut short when he realizes that the guitarist is still going on with his falseta! I'm not saying that has ever happened to me... ahem..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 11:49:44
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

Piwin
Could you please consider if you are taking a very "personal" view on this soleá personal.
IMHO, it cannot be compared to fandango personal. The last one is just the fandango sin compás as opposed to fandango con compás (Fandango de Huelva and folkloric fandangos) And within the fandangos personales you have different creators ( El Mellizo, La Trini etc.) each with their styles and often with a slightly different chord progression.
While I agree that the different regional soleá versions come from a person (personal) Its in general considered that you have to to sing (and play) those versions as the authentical versions.

the double CD of Clavel has various different soleas from the different regions. Depending on the singer(s) that originally crated them. There are various different soleas within each region (Alcala, Triana, Jerez, Cadiz etc.)

When I was playing in the peña in Huelva there were countless (loud) discussions about how a certain regional soleá had to be sung. They found it very important that each personal version of a regional soleá was sung correctly.
Flamenco is a very strict artform performed by anarchistic Andalusian people so nothing is to clear. wow... can they discuss................zzzzz.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 12:07:11
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to orsonw

quote:

Despite the guitar dominance of the foro, dance is the most popular form of flamenco performance outside Spain. This has meant singers sing for dance and that means they sing very slow tempo and square, (as Ricardo has so often pointed out). This has perhaps led to a decline in creativity in cante. Guitar and dance have become more and more adventurous but cante not.


Orson,

What to you think about the idea that Solea was faster in the days of La Nina de los Peines on account of the length of a standard recording? The 78 rpm records had limited space and the artists had to play faster tempos in order to get the music on the record.

I have heard this idea put forward by some aficionados and other have said they just sang faster and the fashion of playing slow and square for dancers had not set in yet.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 12:31:38
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to DavRom

quote:

development of cante? is this thread really about cante? All the Solea...you said, "Let's go back to the roots and chart out a new thread about this old important form."


The roots of solea is arguably the cante, not the guitar. In the last several years on the Foro we have kind of allowed the tail to wag the dog.

Begin a thread about solea on guitar if this seems too limited. I think a thread like this will help a lot of people who may be too shy or reticent to ask about solea cante' ad I think there is an interest.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 12:34:30
 
Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: All the Solea (in reply to estebanana

This is great Bananasan!! Keep it going!
People please just let there be ONE thread about cante. Just give us this one.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 12:43:47
 
estebanana

 

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RE: All the Solea (in reply to Piwin

Piwin,
Again there is a lot here to get through, thanks for taking the time.

I also used t have that anthology of Solea that Anders mentioned, but some crack addict broke my car window a stole my bag of CD's- My I an get it back iTunes

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 30 2016 12:44:45
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