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RE: Some observations and a cante question or 2.   You are logged in as Guest
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zata

Posts: 656
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

I think the bit that maybe Estela doesn't hear (for obvious reasons) is that there is a particularly "sexy" quality in the right kind of female voice singing Bulerias and especially Tangos.


Okay, it's a guy thing. You take Macanita, I get Pansequito.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2003 9:36:08
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata

Mind you, I'd never marry a Flamenco singer....
It's bad enough being nagged, but can you imagine being yelled at by a wife with a voice capable of that kind of power and projection!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2003 9:45:00
 
Escribano

Posts: 5870
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

can you imagine being yelled at by a wife with a voice capable of that kind of power and projection!


... and always going on about her wonderful mother

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2003 10:44:05
 
Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

There are a number of malagueñas that are traditionally accompanied with abandolao strum (like verdiales) as opposed to free-style. The malagueñas of Concha la Peñaranda, Juan Breva and Frasquito Yerbagüena are the most famous that come to mind, the latter commonly used to finish off malagueñas.


Estela,
Are these referred to as Malagueñas, i.e., 'Malagueñas del Frasquito Yerbabuena'? Or are they referred to as Fandangos de Malaga, i.e., 'Fandangos del Frasquito Yerbabuena' ? Thanks for taking the time to answer these elementary questions and helping us learn something.
Phil
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2003 0:46:09
 
zata

Posts: 656
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Are these referred to as Malagueñas, i.e., 'Malagueñas del Frasquito Yerbabuena'? Or are they referred to as Fandangos de Malaga, i.e., 'Fandangos del Frasquito Yerbabuena' ?


It seems to be linked to tradition, or perhaps the years in which a given cante became popular but yes, the malagueña de Concha Peñaranda and the malagueña de Juan Breva for example are very famous, are never called fandangos and are abandolao. But their structure, music and traditional accompaniment are essentially the same as cantes like the fandango de Lucena or fandango del Albaicín. The whole lot sounds like verdiales to an untrained ear. The hard part becomes identifying true verdiales which are separate and distinct.

At the CAF website where you can listen to historic recordings I only recently discovered that the vast majority of Chacon's famous malagueñas were accompanied abandolao! You can barely hear the guitar, but the strum is unmistakeable. So the trend was that cantes came into this world with compas, and as they grew up and took their rightful place among society, some styles lost the steady beat for reasons we can only speculate about. The all-powerful fandango era (first half of the twentieth century) cultivated the general appetite for rhythm-free cante and sped this process along for certain styles.

I'd guess that Ramon Montoya's opening-up of the guitar might have caused guitarists to want to show off their tremolos and other techniques that work well without compas, and the fandango family (which includes malagueña of course) was the perfect outlet since guitar solos were rare.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2003 9:10:57
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2003 18:43:17
 
zata

Posts: 656
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Guest

quote:

how I can distinguish a 3-line bulerias letra being sung "bulerias por solea" from a 3-line solea letra being sung in a "bulerias por solea" ?


To avoid confusion we need to distinguish between the poetic verse and the melody line, which is often called the letra. They are not linked... given words do not need to be sung to a given melody. Verses are interchangeable between nearly all the forms. Letras (melodies) are not.

Three-line bulerías (melodies) are not bulerías por soleá. Bulería por soleá is a separate form with its own melodies, or letras. And the same holds true for the occasional three-line soleá.

In other words, there's no shortcut. You need to hear the melodies (letras) enough to recognize them, just as you recognize the melody of any pop song. How do you tell caña from soleá? Different melody.

The good news is these basic forms depend on the same cadences and tend to follow the format of opening-line (which may be repeated), followed by a two-line 'cambio' portion (which may also be repeated).

Many singers mix soleá with soleá por bulería because there are only about 4 styles of the latter and sixty or so of the former. The other day I realized the importance of seeing the divisions between the lines...a seasoned guitarist who claimed to have no problem with cante made meatloaf of a singer's soleá simply because he wasn't able to follow the structure to know when a line was being repeated, when the cambio came, etc... When you recoqnize a line being repeated, that's one compás you don't need to worry about, and then you also have a good clue about what's coming next.

It's not that hard to learn to spot the number of lines. Listen to recordings that come with the verses printed out and watch how the singer makes use of the options. Once you can identify 3-line verses and 4-line verses, and know more or less how to accompany each one, then you can tackle identifying the most popular styles which helps you accompany the cante in a way that enhances it. At that point you'll never have to wonder if it was bulería, soleá por bulería or soleá...the melodies are as different as the Macarena, Happy Birthday to You, and the Birdie Song .

Forgive me if that was too elementary...it's hard to know what people know...

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2003 19:44:29
 
zata

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2003 20:06:59
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2003 21:41:20
 
zata

Posts: 656
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RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Guest

quote:

I understand what you mean about the cambio in solea and bulerias por solea. That's what makes them both sound like different variations of solea to me in contrast with the bulerias patterns.


This is murky again....all three cantes are very closely related and employ cambios in the cante. If you put me through the wringer and forced me to define the differences in the simplest possible way, I would say: 1) different melodies and 2) different right hand on the guitar.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2003 22:27:11
 
zata

Posts: 656
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Guest

quote:

Maybe I need to listen to the melody of the first line more carefully instead of the pattern of the whole letra. I've found that that helps me distinguish the various alegrias melodies and other cantinas.


I agree that the first line contains the key to the style, in a number of forms. However Norman Kliman who's a genuine authority on soleá and siguiriya styles says it's in the cambio portion that he identifies cantes...I don't get it. And I know more than a few singers who have "set" melodies for their cambios, regardless of what style.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 6 2003 22:36:33
Guest

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata

Well the cambio of solea and bulerias por solea does change to to major key tonality in the cambio and bulerias doesn't usually. The cambio for most bulerias that I know of is the descending cadence, although in the Jerez style decorated with secondary dominant chords. But then again there is a bulerias cambio that goes briefly to Emajor too, but the solea and bulerias always do (even if for only 2 chords).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2003 4:33:32
 
zata

Posts: 656
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Guest

quote:

But then again there is a bulerias cambio that goes briefly to Emajor too, but the solea and bulerias always do (even if for only 2 chords).


Bear in mind that when we say bulerías, we usually mean the *rhythm* of bulerías, and are not referring to any specific cante...unlike nearly all the other forms where a given rhythm is associated with given cantes.

Before Camarón, bulerías was perhaps 90% standard, traditional styles with only a small portion of cuple or the singer's original material. Now that ratio is reversed and only a small portion of bulería cante is traditional styles. There are fewer than a dozen different melodies of what many singers call "bulería corta", meaning *not* cuplé. And it's these styles that follow the same musical pattern as soleá or soleá por bulería. Different tempos might allow for different possibilities in the accompaniment, but musically they are the same and can be accompanied in the same way. In fact, the only significant musical difference I've noticed in bulería, and no one at flamencodisc picked up on this, is the melodic path that resolves the first line in Gm (por medio). In the nineteen-sixties it was exceedingly rare for guitarists to play Gm, even in solos. Then it became fashionable and singers (taking Camarón and Paco's lead), quickly came up with melodies that contained that haunting descent to Gm in the first line, which had long been traditional in tientos. There is no traditional soleá or siguiriya that goes to Gm...you can't even force it. And no traditional bulería contains it either.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2003 7:28:24
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2003 14:45:47
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3523
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata

Zata,
since you've come over here, we just won't let ahold of you will we? We'll keep you busy with questions, we've got lots of them. You said there are about a dozen melodies for trad. bulerias (which interests me at this point more than modern)--does that mean that a guitarist who wants to accompany bulerias only has to learn 12 melodies, and could then theoretically accompany most old school bulerias cante?

When I was learning a little about how to accompany tangos cante this summer, I asked the teachers how I could know where the melody goes, they said you just have to know the melody. Then I asked how many do I have to learn, and they both laughed and said something like LOTS! Would you say this statement is true, or is the situation more like bulerias?

Thanks Estela!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2003 16:07:00
 
zata

Posts: 656
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Guest

quote:

I'm not familiar with a Gm in bulerias cante except a quick passing chord in the final resolution : Gm7 -> Gm7/Ab -> A

Can you give some examples?


There are no examples in traditional bulerías for the same reason (whatever that may be) the chord does not exist in soleá and siguiriyas. Non-traditional bulería, which includes cuple and personal creations, can literally go to any tone at all. It was in the 70's singers became enamoured of the Gm (that's a full Gm, not Gm7), and around 1965 Mario Escudero taught it to me as a "the latest thing from Spain" (even though it had occasionally popped up in solos prior to that. Traditional tientos and tangos melodies go to Gm but guitarists used to waffle through with other chords.). I'm trying to think of bulerías everyone has heard...Pansequito perhaps? He popularized a short coletilla he often tacks on the end of his bulería set:

Vete de mi ver que no quiero verte (resolves in Gm)
cuando te veo me da la muerte (resolves in A)

There's a very old traditional folk tune, not a standard bulería, which is sung in Jerez to bulerías. On older recordings the Gm moment is covered by Bb, but guitarists under 50 or so give the Gm. Romerito has it recorded and again, it's a short coletilla:

Ay mi amor (Gm) ay mi amor, ay mi amante (A)
ay mi amor (Gm) olvidarte no puedo (A)

Then there's a Caracol song Paquera did por bulería which glides cleanly into Gm on the second line, as follows:

La rosa de mi alegría (A)
se la llevó un marinero (Gm)
[song continues for many lines]

Sometimes Gm is a mere alternative to Bb...the novelty was the appearance of a sung cadence that forced the Gm and made Bb sound wrong. I couldn't explain the precise mechanism.

You can't overlook the fact that a nice full Gm barred on the third fret is a beautiful sound on the guitar, unlike the wimpy standard position for Dm.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2003 20:40:40
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2003 20:49:49
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RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

does that mean that a guitarist who wants to accompany bulerias only has to learn 12 melodies, and could then theoretically accompany most old school bulerias cante?


Michael, it's simpler than having to learn "12 melodies". Singers use well-worn paths to travel to certain chords, and those paths are instinctively 'broadcast' in advance of the actual resolution. Just listening to cante puts those things into your head, and there aren't that many chords or possibilities in traditional cante. The problems come with cuple and other creations.

The same holds true for tangos, but there's much more variety in the melodies because of regional variations: tangos de Cádiz, de Triana, de Málaga, de Granada, Extremadura... But really, once you learn to recognize the singer's 'paths', it's not that complicated.

Don't make the mistake of thinking all you need is a good ear...when there are alternative chords, often only one of the choices is the customary sound and anything else will make the singer unhappy.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2003 21:48:51
Guest

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Guest

quote:

so it (Gm) is not used in the bulerias letra itself, right?


(I don't know why I keep coming up as a Guest )

Traditional bulerías, like soleá and siguiriya, contains no Gm, so those coletillas are not part of the body of traditional bulería cante. I posted two coletillas and one beginning of a song...there are many dozens of examples, but they're all songs and cuplé. Thing is, nowadays, hardly anyone bothers to distinguish between the traditional repertoire of bulería cante, and 'derivatives'

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2003 22:09:58
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2003 18:35:59
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2003 18:54:33
 
zata

Posts: 656
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Guest

quote:

Hmmm. I did a quick survey and that's not what I see. Perhaps it depends on who you listen to.



No, not at all Andy. The vast majority of solea por buleria verses are 3 lines. In fact, I’ve only come across one 4-line spb. And you’re thinking “Is she nuts?” The problem is in identifying a verse of spb ‘in the wild’. For one thing, as I warned, many singers mix solea with solea por buleria. Spb is not just another rhythm for solea, it’s an actual style of cante with specific melodies attributed to historic singers. Another pitfall is the interjections I mentioned in another message. A verse of spb has three lines, but it’s traditional, almost obligatory, to add interjections such as “mare de mi alma”, “compan~era mia” or anything else the singer feels like sticking in. It’s a bit like the old vaudevillians who in the middle of a song would interject “and I really mean it” or “one more time”. These insertions are *not* part of the verse, are not standardized, and are at the whim of the singer.

Here’s a rundown of the styles of solea por buleria (buleria por solea). The names are of historic singers who are credited with the styles, probably more than you wanted to know, but it’s the only way to put this in perspective:

MARIA LA MORENO: This style accounts for perhaps 80% of spb. A common and traditional verse begins “Al de la puerta real”. It has a 3-line melodic framework and corresponding verse which is often expanded with the above-mentioned interjections.

ANTONIO LAPEN~A: Needless to say, if the previous style is so common, these others are far less often heard. A common verse is “Dejo la puerta entorna”. Three-line melodic framework and corresponding verse, may or may not incorporate above-mentioned interjections.

EL GLORIA 1: (The numbers ‘one’ and ‘two’ are arbitrary, simply to distinguish between the two styles El Gloria popularized). This one is sometimes used to close out a set of spb. Three-line melodic framework and corresponding verse. Offhand I don’t recall hearing this style with the characteristic interjections.

EL GLORIA 2: This style is very popular in Jerez, (where El Gloria was from), and the Sorderas work it up and flesh out the melody almost into a “flamenco aria”, a real work of art and incredibly dramatic. *This* is the only four-line style I know and the interjection which is always inserted (notice how it throws the rhyming pattern out of kilter) brings it up to five lines when you hear it sung. This is a very special case because the interjection (shown in parentheses) “pero yo culpita no tengo” has the rare quality of relating to the verse as opposed to being a universal line which could be inserted into any spb. It’s a masterpiece of cante:

Y dios te va a mandar un castigo
porque tu te lo mereces
y tu me vienes culpando
(pero yo culpita no tengo)
de que de ti hable la gente.

The following is a loose translation of the above verse, intended to pin down the intent and meaning and show how the interjection packs a whollop:

You’re gonna get yours baby
‘cause you got it coming,
you wanna pin the blame on me
(I didn’t do nothing!)
‘cause everyone’s talking about you.

A quick look at the examples you gave... “Por alli viene mi bata” is 3-lines, but it’s a classic verse of solea, attributed to Juaniqui de Lebrija. It’s not spb. “Te tengo en mi pensamiento” is a Juan Villar modification of the Maria la Moreno style...I say “Juan Villar modification” because I never heard any other singer copy it. He sings the third line with the classic melody of an interjection, and yet that line of poetry does not break the rhyming pattern. In other words, an odd exception which proves the rule and hasn’t been repeated as far as I know:

Te tengo en mi pensamiento
y tu no me quieres a mi
(la vida sera un tomento)
tengo que vivir sin ti

Don’t overlook the fact that there’s a fair amount of 3-line solea verses and they may surface mixed with spb.

Estela ‘Zata’
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2003 21:29:36
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2003 23:18:24
 
zata

Posts: 656
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Guest

quote:

Sorry, but I'm not convinced. I count 4 lines in the above and in the following:



The verse of "Por alli viene mi bata" which is solea de Juaniqui has these lines:

Por allí viene mi bata
dejala pasar de largo
que a mi sus ducas me matan

Does that sound like what you hear? Lots of singers have recorded this verse, so I don't know which one you have. There's no reason why you couldn't add a fourth line and sing it as a four-line solea such as Alcala, Serneta... This is where it can be misleading to refer to styles by the verse. Joselero has the above solea recorded with another letra:

Me juegan consejo de guerra
que si me ven hablar contigo
primita y en Puerto Tierra

I used to sing the Villar letra and know exactly what he's doing: a 3-line verse with interjection. The interjections are not a part of the verse. Villar is singing the classic Maria la Moreno 3-line spb (melody of "Al de la puerta real") with normal interjection....the only novelty is that his inserted words bear a relation to the verse, so in a certain sense, you could say he created a new style, but since no one has copied him, it stands as a rare exception. If I remember, he sings another in the same fashion:

Si yo llegara algun dia
a apartarme de tu lao
(la muerte preferiria)
antes que vivir amargao

The lines in brackets occupy the musical niche where the singer would normally sing "primo de mi alma" or one of the other stock phrases used in spb.

The Fernanda verses you cite are solea...Fernanda and Bernarda have always mixed solea with spb. However notice this verse you cite:

mira lo que andan hablando
yo no tengo na contigo
primo de mi alma
mi crédito me estan quitando

That's a classic sbp with the stock interjection "primo de mi alma" that will usually occupy no more than a half compas...this is a quirky characteristic of spb. Notice how "primo de mi alma" doesn't rhyme with any of the lines and doesn't contain enough syllables to be a line of cante.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2003 23:57:58
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