Some observations and a cante question or 2.

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Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

Some observations and a cante questi...

There’s a common misconception among many foreign guitarists (including me, until recently) that Soleas are always played in E Phrygian (aka ‘por arriba’), and that if played in A Phrygian (aka ‘por medio’) it’s automatically a Bulerias por Solea or Solea por Bulerias (they’re exactly the same thing). The reality is that Soleas are routinely played in both keys according to the needs of the singer and the desires of the guitarist, who may not want (or be able) to play por arriba if he has to put the cejilla on the 8th or 9th fret. This is not my opinion, it's an observation of what occurs.

This interchangeability of playing positions is also true of Fandangos, Alegrias, and Bulerias . What I find curious (and I could be wrong) is that this interchangeability of playing positions doesn’t appear to hold true for other palos. For example, I’ve never seen a Siguiriya played in anything other than A Phrygian (not counting cabales and machos in A Major). Has anyone ever heard it played in E Phyigian? Except for those mentioned, most of the palos seem to strictly stick to their respective traditional playing positions.

Now, I have to admit something. I often can’t tell the difference between a fast Solea and a Buleria por Solea. Can anyone tell me how to distinguish between the two? I know the differences are primarily in the cante, but what exactly are those differences? I have a CD with Morao accompanying Terremoto, there are 2 Soleas and a Bulerias por Solea all played por medio, and I can’t tell the difference. Can anybody address this?

Thanks,
Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2003 0:05:23

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

Phil,
I have the solution to your last question. Some people will tell you that there is a seperate palo called Solea por bulerias, which has its own melody and characteristics. Others will tell you that the solea por bulerias is a fast solea, while a bulerias por solea is a slow bulerias. They are all right!

The fact is that pro players have told me all of the above. That means that pro players are playing--working in Spain--and referring to them as such along with the people who they have to interact and work with. If that is so, then they are correct, as the working spanish musician is the benchmark we have to recognize. That being said, each one also would dismiss the others as wrong!

I have to believe that they are all correct. The only person who is not correct is the one who dismisses the others. So they are all wrong! Do you understand? Because I'm confused!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2003 1:40:51

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

Thanks for your input Michael.

Michael Cho said,

quote:

Others will tell you that the solea por bulerias is a fast solea, while a bulerias por solea is a slow bulerias.

I think it's generally accepted that SpB and BpS are two ways of saying exactly the same thing. Someone once tried to make the point that if the letras are Bulerias than it's a BpS and vice-versa, but that argument doesn't hold up because the same letras are often sung por Soleas and por Bulerias. But anyway, my question is what distinguishes a BpS cante from a plain old Solea cante? The problem that one encounter's when asking about such things is that the anwers that you get are often made up on the spot. In other words, the person doesn't really know the real answer so they just tell you something so they don't have to admit that they don't know the answer. This happens all the time, especially in Andalucia. I was watching a TV program in a bar one day and a singer was about to sing something. The announcer said she was going to sing a Malagueñas. Well, she sang a Verdiales or another Fandango abandolao (I really don't know the difference). I commented to the bartender that she wasn't singing a Malaqueñas, but possibly some form of Fandango Abandolao and that maybe the announcer meant to say a Fandango de Malaga. The bartender looked at me and said, "She's singing a Malagueñas. It's just that the guitarist doesn't know how to play a Malagueñas." Well, I can assure you that the guitarist knew what he was doing and that the bartender knows far less about Flamenco than anyone on this forum, but there's no way I was going to argue with him. I would have never convinced him that he was wrong and a "guiri" was right.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2003 21:23:25

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

And why does Saura's Flamenco movie list Soleares and Solea in the credits? Did we ever get to the bottom of this distinction (if any)?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2003 21:28:05

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

Phil, you and I have heard that SpB and BpS are the same thing, yet one of my teachers in Spain told me they were not... but that is about all I have to offer!

One of my other teachers told me that what would be called SpB or Bps today would have simply been called a Soleares (albeit fast) back in the day. I think we're talking sixty years ago or so. This seems pretty plausible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2003 23:26:01

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

quote:

And why does Saura's Flamenco movie list Soleares and Solea in the credits? Did we ever get to the bottom of this distinction (if any)?

When I was first introduced to Flamenco the term I heard most often was 'Soleares'. 'Solea' seems to be the more common term nowadays. However, I don't know if the proper plural of 'Solea' is 'Soleas' or 'Soleares'. It's probably 'Soleares'. But in any case a 'Solea' and a 'Soleares' is the same thing.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2003 23:33:20

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

quote:

One of my other teachers told me that what would be called SpB or Bps today would have simply been called a Soleares (albeit fast) back in the day. I think we're talking sixty years ago or so.

Michael,
I once heard an old-timer say exactly the same thing. That when he was young it was all just Soleares and no one he knew used the term Solea por Bulerias or Bulerias por Solea. I guess it's just evolution.
Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2003 23:37:58

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

That's what I thought but why the distinction in the movie as there doesn't seem to a be a difference between them in terms of plurality? I am going to look at it closely and see if I can make an totally uneducated guess.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2003 10:13:59

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Escribano)

Simon,
My take on this is:
SpM and SpB are different. Solea is solea and Buleria is Buleria. The mood is not the same and the fact that both forms are played in the same key is of no consequence other than to cause a bit of confusion.
One really good example of this that I'm sure you'll be able to track down is from Paco Pena, Fabulous Flamenco CD, track 9 'Para la Lagunilla' (Solea) but played por medio.
As for Solea and Soleares, I understand that it is just singular and plural usage.
Cheers
Jim.
PS the fold up guitar looks neat!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2003 11:36:10

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2003 19:28:11

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

What a lot of misinformation is getting thrown around...I hardly know where to begin. Some key points, and be advised that I never present opinion as fact:

1) Soleá por bulería, bulería por soleá and bulería pa' escuchar are all one in the same cante. There are no more than four or five styles and yes, they represent a separate and distinct cante *and toque*...anyone who says otherwise hasn't learned to tell the difference so finds it convenient to say it's the same as soleá. The distinction is not helped by the fact that many singers mix soleá por bulería with soleá, most notably Fernanda and Bernarda de Utrera. The tempo is never an indicator...soleá can be fast, soleá por bulería can be slow. The marching strum of the latter might give the impression of speed.

The person who said that these cantes used to simply be called "soleá" in some places is right, and I've heard this from many oldtimers. The new terminology came in gradually and wasn't widespread until the early sixties.

Characteristics of this cante: While soleá nearly always (but not always!) has a 4-line verse, soleá por bulería is nearly always 3. Half compases are liberally employed by the singer, including interjections such as "mare de mi alma", "gitana mala" and the like, which reinforces the feeling of half-compases. The guitarist keeps to 12 no matter what, unlike in bulerías where he may indulge in sixes.

2) Positions. No cante is dependant on any specific position. Traditionally certain postions were used for years, with associated falsetas that kept a certain sound. Nowadays the whole thing is wide open musically...the only thing that matters is that the singer be in a comfortable tone, but with cejillas the guitarist can play in a wide range of positions. Juan Talega sang siguiriya por arriba. Some singers voices just don't fit certain positions because the guitarist would have to play on the tenth or eleventh fret. Singers who don't play guitar couldn't care less what position you play in, and there are simply no guidelines.

3) There are a number of malagueñas that are traditionally accompanied with abandolao strum (like verdiales) as opposed to free-style. The malagueñas of Concha la Peñaranda, Juan Breva and Frasquito Yerbagüena are the most famous that come to mind, the latter commonly used to finish off malagueñas. Unless you know cante, it just sounds like verdiales.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 11:33:40

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

quote:

I never present opinion as fact:

I should have added the word *knowingly*

Regarding solea or soleares, when I was young *everyone* said solea, but around the late sixties it became hip to say 'solea'. Just different names for the same thing. Some cantes, like alegrías, are always spoken of in plural...you don't say "I'm going to sing alegría"...others, like taranto, are usually spoken of in the singular collective sense.

Fashions in flamenco come and go, just as in all things.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 11:52:12

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

quote:

when I was young *everyone* said solea, but around the late sixties it became hip to say 'solea'.

Right, nothing like a litte added confusion....of course I meant that it used to be called "soleares". Some older singers still say 'soleares'.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 11:58:37

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata)

Thank you for taking the time Estela, I know these questions and opinions, crop up again and again and then we forget (or start a new forum

) and it starts over.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 12:13:36

Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

Thanks, Estela, I was waiting for you to jump in an shed some light on this.

Phil

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 13:12:49

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

I don't stop by as often as I should...so much work

I could really use a hand on one front...I'm looking for someone to write a short review of the new Pele/Amigo record. I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to avoid being negative and that's not fair to such fine artists.

Any comers? Or would that be "takers"?

Drop me a line anyone willing...it would appear in English with Spanish translation...you don't need to sign it if you don't want.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 13:23:48

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata)

Great opportunity for one us, thanks! Happy to review Tomatito in London next Monday

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 14:03:08

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

quote:

Happy to review Tomatito in London next Monday

That would be fantastic Simon!

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 14:27:22

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata)

quote:

That would be fantastic Simon!

If you're serious, I would be happy to have a go; but it would be from a layperson's perspective, no deep

critique of influences, the jaleos, palmas etc.

Anyway, you don't have to use it, but I would love to try. Let me know.

Simon

p.s. I wonder if one can use smileys in a review?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 15:08:53

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Phil)

quote:

If you're serious, I would be happy to have a go

Of course I'm serious. There are all different kinds of reviews, and at this stage in the game no one needs to be told who Tomatito is, so it would be a guitarist's viewpoint more than a critic's...the same stuff we talk about here, I know you can do it.

But no smileys Simon

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 15:27:15

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata)

OK, you're on. I'll report back after October 6th.

quote:

But no smileys Simon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 15:30:31

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata)

Estella,
Always good to read your posts.
As a layman, so to speak I have always found the Solea(res) in A a little bit less heavy than what I'd call "classical" Soleares in E.
(I'm talking about the "sound" the guitar sets here)
Not that I haven't heard some outstanding stuff in the "A" key.
Far from it.
But anything I've heard that's totally torn my heart out was slow, and in E.
Maybe I'm just being subjective here?
Can I ask, which (guitar) key would you prefer to sing in if you wanted to convey a "profound" mood in Soleares?

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 21:24:31

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Escribano)

Ron,
Of course different positions convey different feelings, probably more to the listeners than to the singers themselves.

As a woman I've almost always sung in A position because my range is between 4 and 6 por medio, so the equivalent in E would be between 9 and 11. I could have pushed it to 7 in A which would be open E, but it used to be guitarists never wanted to play open between they said the touch was too hard.

So after all these years I'm used to solea in A and enjoy the sound, which I find plaintive and maybe even Arabic. One of my favorite sounds for the guitar is way up on 7 or 8 in A position. That sound slices right through me.

I definitely don't like the sound of siguiriyas in E, but realize some singers just have to be there.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 21:47:10

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

As a woman I've almost always sung in A position because my range is between 4 and 6 por medio, so the equivalent in E would be between 9 and 11.

Historically there were always far more men singers than women so I happen to believe that's how certain cantes became associated with certain positions.

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 21:49:47

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata)

Estela,
Thanks...great to hear that the "high keys" on the guitar "slice" through you, gives you the setting and feedback for singing.
I love them myself. A great "sorrowful" tone from the guitar at that altitude. Very brittle and glassy. I've always loved that sound!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 22:01:36

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata)

Estela,
I don't know how to do this "quote" thing that everybody does, but just to say that I have become enfatuated with the female voice in Flamenco.
Especially Bulerias!
There is no one can sing Bulerias convincingly with a male voice now in my opinion after a few tune-ins to Ondajerez.
The pitch and delivery is dead right. IMO.

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 22:19:24

zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

I don't know how to do this "quote" thing that everybody does

Innit great?!!

I just discovered it today....before hitting "Post Reply" you just highlight and 'copy' the bit you want to quote, then when you hit the reply button, the quote automatically appears!

Let's see....great male voices for bulerías...

Have you ever heard Pansequito's first record with Habichuela accompanying? It redefines bulerías, and his voice is so rich you put on weight just listening to it. Other great male voices (as opposed to just great singers) are Juan Villar, El Indio Gitano and Luis de la Pica. Listen if possible to these four and get back to me

Estela 'Zata'

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2003 22:40:06

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

There is no one can sing Bulerias convincingly with a male voice now in my opinion

Yep, and the Tangos for me. I love female voices for Tangos.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2003 0:17:23

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to zata)

quote:

you just highlight and 'copy' the bit you want to quote, then when you hit the reply button, the quote automatically appears!

No need to 'copy' (CTRL-C), just highlight or select the text. Even better.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2003 0:20:18

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Some observations and a cante qu... (in reply to Escribano)

Yeah Simon,
I agree totally. I think the bit that maybe Estela doesn't hear (for obvious reasons) is that there is a particularly "sexy" quality in the right kind of female voice singing Bulerias and especially Tangos.
There is a singer who sings in one of the Jerez peñas (I think it may be Peña de la Buleria). Not only does she have that voice but she is absolutely gorgeous too!!

cheers

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 1 2003 8:19:58