RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde

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Ricardo

Posts: 15142
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Now back to the 68 Conde tutorial with an insert of RE Brune's 1967 Conde that is quite different in its pattern from the '68 that I'm working with. The differences are very interesting.

http://www.rebrune.com/1967-faustino-conde/

Great report. That was my favorite guitar in his museum for sure. But then again, I have a 1973 which is almost identical to this one. I guess those parallel braces go back to 1967, almost the same as the modern conde design. The tie block is the most unique thing I think about these guitars, I have not seen that short embedded style on any other makers (the white cap boarder doesnt' extend as far out beyond the strings width as the bone saddle slot does, but has left over wood instead hanging off the sides).

If you take a close look at the heel photo, you can see the "paint brush strokes" of the orange finish cuz they go against the grain. It was weird, my 73 is honey orange but did not look like this guitar. It was kind of funny looking to be honest, but the other photos make it look pretty normal.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2015 15:51:49

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

My favorite , I believe, was the Manuel de la Chica 1963. It s playing style and articulation was perfect for my technique...almost made me want to start practicing again. If I had that guitar, I probably would but I have been taught by my mother to never covet something I can't afford

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2015 23:31:19

RobJe

Posts: 732
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The tie block is the most unique thing I think about these guitars, I have not seen that short embedded style on any other makers (the white cap boarder doesnt' extend as far out beyond the strings width as the bone saddle slot does, but has left over wood instead hanging off the sides).

I agree. I grew up in a period when everyone who was anything had a guitar like this.

Fleta has something similar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2015 13:37:29

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

never covet something I can't afford

I feel that way about your guitars.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2015 13:42:16

Ricardo

Posts: 15142
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

The tie block is the most unique thing I think about these guitars, I have not seen that short embedded style on any other makers (the white cap boarder doesnt' extend as far out beyond the strings width as the bone saddle slot does, but has left over wood instead hanging off the sides).

I agree. I grew up in a period when everyone who was anything had a guitar like this.

Fleta has something similar.

I remember seeing the fleta design, and yeah it was unique too. Brune schooled me privately on this issue...the Garcia in his collection has the same type of design, and he said others in madrid too long before Conde started doing it. Not so unique after all, but I still like it and wish modern builders would bring it back.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2015 15:14:56

RobJe

Posts: 732
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

For the record the Golden Age of Bridges lasted from c1962 to 1987 (Faustino died in 1988) on media luna and some of the other better guitars and almost exclusively from those with the Gravina label. I have seen one with the Felipe V address attributed to Mariano senior.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 6 2015 19:41:31

orsonw

Posts: 1995
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

The tie block is the most unique thing I think about these guitars, I have not seen that short embedded style on any other makers (the white cap boarder doesnt' extend as far out beyond the strings width as the bone saddle slot does, but has left over wood instead hanging off the sides).

I agree. I grew up in a period when everyone who was anything had a guitar like this.

Fleta has something similar.

I remember seeing the fleta design, and yeah it was unique too. Brune schooled me privately on this issue...the Garcia in his collection has the same type of design, and he said others in madrid too long before Conde started doing it. Not so unique after all, but I still like it and wish modern builders would bring it back.

Hard to see for sure but I think this recently built guitar by luthier (Francisco Vico Molina) has a similar tie block?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2015 10:10:58

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to orsonw)

I have good memories when I hear this traditional music without too much jazz-menco involved. This fellow has good technique and expression, and the guitar is responsive but a little too brash for my taste which I prefer to be a little more musical in its treble end.

But the heck with the bridge when you give us such great presentation of flamenco

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2015 14:13:22

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to orsonw)

At first glance it looked like Chaparro de Marlow to me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2015 14:25:04

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Sr. Martins)

I'm about ready to brace the back and install it. Boy! this has been an interesting task; especially as an experiment to see if the top will work with proper voicing and tension.

The top is the main issue and it seems that it could go either way toward being a master piece or a potential top replacement, which I have a whole box full of tops to prove it.

But to be clear, I haven't had a top failure for over 15 years, that I can remember, but this doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2015 13:24:24

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is a review of the top and the back, which will be installed in the next few days.........

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2015 2:50:06

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I have just gotten notice that Mark Usherovich in Canada is coming here to build a couple of guitars with me. He will be here this Saturday for about 2 weeks and I'm sure we will have a great time. He is an excellent builder of classical and flamenco guitars.

We will investigate a new flamenco model together, and hopefully we can manage to come up with something really nice and keep the price in the mid range somewhere. No telling where this will go until it happens.........

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 20 2015 19:03:55

eccullen

Posts: 98
Joined: Aug. 14 2007

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Ive wondered about the "vowel tone" that Tom B has referred to many times.
I came across this interview with Matthias Dammann:

http://hajos-kontrapunkte.blogspot.ie/2011/03/matthias-damann-luthier-guitarist-and.html

Matthias:
The central point for me is the aural experience of my own playing . My guitar studies, which I have concluded in Frankfurt, were in every respect very intense. During this period basic features of my playing technique and the associated sound conceptions were substantially engraved.

My personal ideal of sound is characterized by a very strong fundamental resonance. If you take for example a harpsichord. If you play it, you will notice that bass notes have very strong harmonics whereas the basic tone is in comparison relatively small. In contrast the piano has a much more fundamental resonance.

When we look at the guitar, the relation between the fundamental resonance and the harmonics varies from one guitar to another. An instrument tuned to a deep fundamental resonance will not only be defined by a strong bass. The deep fundamental tuning will be noticed also in the high registers. This means that also an instrument with a weak bass can be stronger in the fundamental resonance than an instrument with a strong bass register but whose sound is thin and nasal.

Stringed instruments are valued according to similar criteria. In use is the formant theory, which uses the complex tonal sound of vocals in order to classify an instrument. An instrument can sound like: "U", "O", "A", "E" and "I". With the tone color of the vocal a judgement is associated. Instruments, which sound after “E” or “I”, have a nasal character and will be set aside. Instruments, which sound after “O” or “A”, will be preferred. Instruments, which sound after “U”, sound dark and musty and will not be regarded as good instruments.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2015 16:59:11

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to eccullen)

Thanks I've read the article already but what I gather from him is more of an explanation of different sounds of audio explained rather than "where do I go to create certain tonal changes. etc.
I think it would be a better service to explain this information to those who don't know about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eccullen

Ive wondered about the "vowel tone" that Tom B has referred to many times.
I came across this interview with Matthias Dammann:

http://hajos-kontrapunkte.blogspot.ie/2011/03/matthias-damann-luthier-guitarist-and.html

Matthias:
The central point for me is the aural experience of my own playing . My guitar studies, which I have concluded in Frankfurt, were in every respect very intense. During this period basic features of my playing technique and the associated sound conceptions were substantially engraved.

My personal ideal of sound is characterized by a very strong fundamental resonance. If you take for example a harpsichord. If you play it, you will notice that bass notes have very strong harmonics whereas the basic tone is in comparison relatively small. In contrast the piano has a much more fundamental resonance.

When we look at the guitar, the relation between the fundamental resonance and the harmonics varies from one guitar to another. An instrument tuned to a deep fundamental resonance will not only be defined by a strong bass. The deep fundamental tuning will be noticed also in the high registers. This means that also an instrument with a weak bass can be stronger in the fundamental resonance than an instrument with a strong bass register but whose sound is thin and nasal.

Stringed instruments are valued according to similar criteria. In use is the formant theory, which uses the complex tonal sound of vocals in order to classify an instrument. An instrument can sound like: "U", "O", "A", "E" and "I". With the tone color of the vocal a judgement is associated. Instruments, which sound after “E” or “I”, have a nasal character and will be set aside. Instruments, which sound after “O” or “A”, will be preferred. Instruments, which sound after “U”, sound dark and musty and will not be regarded as good instruments.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2015 19:30:53

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1693
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to orsonw)

Doesn't Chaparro de Malaga look just like Ricardo?

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2015 22:43:20

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to eccullen)

quote:

Ive wondered about the "vowel tone" that Tom B has referred to many times. I came across this interview with Matthias Dammann: http://hajos-kontrapunkte.blogspot.ie/2011/03/matthias-damann-luthier-guitarist-and.html Matthi

Thanks for the link!

Unfortunately, I haven't found much on the vowel tone subject. I find it fascinating and surprised most searches lead back to Tom.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2015 23:09:53

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

I read somewhere many years ago that there are 5-6 different characteristics of humanity that resemble or look-a-like to some extent, and I've been told this can happen with people all over the world. Perhaps this is a similar happening.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2015 12:08:34

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

Unfortunately, I haven't found much on the vowel tone subject. I find it fascinating and surprised most searches lead back to Tom.

Obviously, the Spanish builders knew similar techniques and this is just a repeat of their scenarios that took place in antiquity. I've merely sought to emulate their path and found things that work, perhaps not exactly like their work but close enough to where you could call it akin to their work.

I'll try and get back to the Conde tutorial but first I have to refurbish a 1963 Ramirez flamenco guitar for a friend of mine; hopefully it won't take more than about a week. I think it will be for sale after I get through with it. The trick is to keep much of the old patina and spruce it up a little. The guitar is not in great condition but it has certain things that I like about it.

Mark just left the shop and headed home to Canada with all the guitar parts we built. He will assemble them when he gets home. His flamenco guitar that he brought with him was designed as a more classical sound; very nice but not flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2015 12:12:38

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I just got through with a 1963 Ramirez repair. Had to do some fine tuning as the guitar was not up to a high tonal level; sounds kind of like an old Santos now.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu8yeI9zviByOdTRs3vusjQ

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 29 2015 19:10:35

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Mission impossible IMHO. I recently sold off a Ramirez negra classical. Nothing would bring out the trebles on it. The bass strings would dominate the trebles. It was a very frustrating guitar tone wise. Although technically, it played like a dream. I got rid of it.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2015 14:07:21

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

Well, the neck I made for Mark was not the best I could do so I made another one that came out very nice and I sent that to him.

Now, I have to make one more neck and I'll be free to return to the Conde tutorial.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 27 2015 13:00:54

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I'm running a little behind but here is the last video.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 14 2015 20:57:50

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

What?!!

I can't believe what I just saw and heard!

A little sanding in two areas on the top's surface and the strings now sound balanced.

Tom, you are a wizard!

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2015 15:15:43

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

Well, it's a start but this is not the half of it. All this does is prep the top a little on balance,
but the actual intonation and string vowel tone has to be worked on.

Then I have to work the articulation and dynamic up and down the fingerboard.. etc.

And wizardry has nothing to do with it, as it is basically learning where to go to make adjustments with-in certain perimeters by a developed intuitive skill.

I'm sure M. Dammann does this, as well as Gernot Wagner, to some extent. Here is a replacement top done on a Dammann guitar.

http://lfdmguitars.ca/tag/dammann

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 16 2015 16:38:58

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here is some of the finishing process:

https://youtu.be/ETz2qhSJnFc

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2015 6:29:42

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Interesting how the Cr2K2O7 reacts with cedar. The rosewood box is a real beauty, even at this point.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 22 2015 19:30:15

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

Here is a previous video on tone that I almost forgot about:

https://youtu.be/mZ03mIoqZ7E

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2015 20:32:35

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Here the the last video so far, with the top color:

https://youtu.be/9K6RqcBmPMc

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2015 22:59:54

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Has that Conde moaning tone, that really catches your ear. I am always amazed by your work!

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2015 15:21:07

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: Building a modification of a 196... (in reply to SephardRick)

I took a short video today with everything put together but the tap plate, which will be installed next week. The top came out well and the tonal balance is good. I believe that after the guitar is played for awhile, it will develop into a fine instrument. I'll try and install the video later today.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2015 15:37:44