RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Full Version)

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Ricardo -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 3 2015 15:51:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Now back to the 68 Conde tutorial with an insert of RE Brune's 1967 Conde that is quite different in its pattern from the '68 that I'm working with. The differences are very interesting.

http://www.rebrune.com/1967-faustino-conde/


Great report. That was my favorite guitar in his museum for sure. But then again, I have a 1973 which is almost identical to this one. I guess those parallel braces go back to 1967, almost the same as the modern conde design. The tie block is the most unique thing I think about these guitars, I have not seen that short embedded style on any other makers (the white cap boarder doesnt' extend as far out beyond the strings width as the bone saddle slot does, but has left over wood instead hanging off the sides).

If you take a close look at the heel photo, you can see the "paint brush strokes" of the orange finish cuz they go against the grain. It was weird, my 73 is honey orange but did not look like this guitar. It was kind of funny looking to be honest, but the other photos make it look pretty normal.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 5 2015 23:31:19)

My favorite , I believe, was the Manuel de la Chica 1963. It s playing style and articulation was perfect for my technique...almost made me want to start practicing again. If I had that guitar, I probably would but I have been taught by my mother to never covet something I can't afford[8|]




RobJe -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 6 2015 13:37:29)

quote:

The tie block is the most unique thing I think about these guitars, I have not seen that short embedded style on any other makers (the white cap boarder doesnt' extend as far out beyond the strings width as the bone saddle slot does, but has left over wood instead hanging off the sides).


I agree. I grew up in a period when everyone who was anything had a guitar like this.

Fleta has something similar.




SephardRick -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 6 2015 13:42:16)

quote:

never covet something I can't afford


I feel that way about your guitars.




Ricardo -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 6 2015 15:14:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

The tie block is the most unique thing I think about these guitars, I have not seen that short embedded style on any other makers (the white cap boarder doesnt' extend as far out beyond the strings width as the bone saddle slot does, but has left over wood instead hanging off the sides).


I agree. I grew up in a period when everyone who was anything had a guitar like this.

Fleta has something similar.


I remember seeing the fleta design, and yeah it was unique too. Brune schooled me privately on this issue...the Garcia in his collection has the same type of design, and he said others in madrid too long before Conde started doing it. Not so unique after all, but I still like it and wish modern builders would bring it back.

Ricardo




RobJe -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 6 2015 19:41:31)

For the record the Golden Age of Bridges lasted from c1962 to 1987 (Faustino died in 1988) on media luna and some of the other better guitars and almost exclusively from those with the Gravina label. I have seen one with the Felipe V address attributed to Mariano senior.




orsonw -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 8 2015 10:10:58)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

The tie block is the most unique thing I think about these guitars, I have not seen that short embedded style on any other makers (the white cap boarder doesnt' extend as far out beyond the strings width as the bone saddle slot does, but has left over wood instead hanging off the sides).


I agree. I grew up in a period when everyone who was anything had a guitar like this.

Fleta has something similar.


I remember seeing the fleta design, and yeah it was unique too. Brune schooled me privately on this issue...the Garcia in his collection has the same type of design, and he said others in madrid too long before Conde started doing it. Not so unique after all, but I still like it and wish modern builders would bring it back.


Hard to see for sure but I think this recently built guitar by luthier (Francisco Vico Molina) has a similar tie block?





Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 8 2015 14:13:22)

I have good memories when I hear this traditional music without too much jazz-menco involved. This fellow has good technique and expression, and the guitar is responsive but a little too brash for my taste which I prefer to be a little more musical in its treble end.

But the heck with the bridge when you give us such great presentation of flamenco[;)]




Sr. Martins -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 8 2015 14:25:04)

At first glance it looked like Chaparro de Marlow to me.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 9 2015 13:24:24)

I'm about ready to brace the back and install it. Boy! this has been an interesting task; especially as an experiment to see if the top will work with proper voicing and tension.

The top is the main issue and it seems that it could go either way toward being a master piece or a potential top replacement, which I have a whole box full of tops to prove it.

But to be clear, I haven't had a top failure for over 15 years, that I can remember, but this doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 14 2015 2:50:06)

Here is a review of the top and the back, which will be installed in the next few days.........





Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Feb. 20 2015 19:03:55)

I have just gotten notice that Mark Usherovich in Canada is coming here to build a couple of guitars with me. He will be here this Saturday for about 2 weeks and I'm sure we will have a great time. He is an excellent builder of classical and flamenco guitars.

We will investigate a new flamenco model together, and hopefully we can manage to come up with something really nice and keep the price in the mid range somewhere. No telling where this will go until it happens.........




eccullen -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Mar. 15 2015 16:59:11)

Ive wondered about the "vowel tone" that Tom B has referred to many times.
I came across this interview with Matthias Dammann:

http://hajos-kontrapunkte.blogspot.ie/2011/03/matthias-damann-luthier-guitarist-and.html

Matthias:
The central point for me is the aural experience of my own playing . My guitar studies, which I have concluded in Frankfurt, were in every respect very intense. During this period basic features of my playing technique and the associated sound conceptions were substantially engraved.

My personal ideal of sound is characterized by a very strong fundamental resonance. If you take for example a harpsichord. If you play it, you will notice that bass notes have very strong harmonics whereas the basic tone is in comparison relatively small. In contrast the piano has a much more fundamental resonance.

When we look at the guitar, the relation between the fundamental resonance and the harmonics varies from one guitar to another. An instrument tuned to a deep fundamental resonance will not only be defined by a strong bass. The deep fundamental tuning will be noticed also in the high registers. This means that also an instrument with a weak bass can be stronger in the fundamental resonance than an instrument with a strong bass register but whose sound is thin and nasal.

Stringed instruments are valued according to similar criteria. In use is the formant theory, which uses the complex tonal sound of vocals in order to classify an instrument. An instrument can sound like: "U", "O", "A", "E" and "I". With the tone color of the vocal a judgement is associated. Instruments, which sound after “E” or “I”, have a nasal character and will be set aside. Instruments, which sound after “O” or “A”, will be preferred. Instruments, which sound after “U”, sound dark and musty and will not be regarded as good instruments.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Mar. 15 2015 19:30:53)

Thanks I've read the article already but what I gather from him is more of an explanation of different sounds of audio explained rather than "where do I go to create certain tonal changes. etc.
I think it would be a better service to explain this information to those who don't know about it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: eccullen

Ive wondered about the "vowel tone" that Tom B has referred to many times.
I came across this interview with Matthias Dammann:

http://hajos-kontrapunkte.blogspot.ie/2011/03/matthias-damann-luthier-guitarist-and.html

Matthias:
The central point for me is the aural experience of my own playing . My guitar studies, which I have concluded in Frankfurt, were in every respect very intense. During this period basic features of my playing technique and the associated sound conceptions were substantially engraved.

My personal ideal of sound is characterized by a very strong fundamental resonance. If you take for example a harpsichord. If you play it, you will notice that bass notes have very strong harmonics whereas the basic tone is in comparison relatively small. In contrast the piano has a much more fundamental resonance.

When we look at the guitar, the relation between the fundamental resonance and the harmonics varies from one guitar to another. An instrument tuned to a deep fundamental resonance will not only be defined by a strong bass. The deep fundamental tuning will be noticed also in the high registers. This means that also an instrument with a weak bass can be stronger in the fundamental resonance than an instrument with a strong bass register but whose sound is thin and nasal.

Stringed instruments are valued according to similar criteria. In use is the formant theory, which uses the complex tonal sound of vocals in order to classify an instrument. An instrument can sound like: "U", "O", "A", "E" and "I". With the tone color of the vocal a judgement is associated. Instruments, which sound after “E” or “I”, have a nasal character and will be set aside. Instruments, which sound after “O” or “A”, will be preferred. Instruments, which sound after “U”, sound dark and musty and will not be regarded as good instruments.




constructordeguitarras -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Mar. 15 2015 22:43:20)

Doesn't Chaparro de Malaga look just like Ricardo?




SephardRick -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Mar. 15 2015 23:09:53)

quote:

Ive wondered about the "vowel tone" that Tom B has referred to many times. I came across this interview with Matthias Dammann: http://hajos-kontrapunkte.blogspot.ie/2011/03/matthias-damann-luthier-guitarist-and.html Matthi


Thanks for the link!

Unfortunately, I haven't found much on the vowel tone subject. I find it fascinating and surprised most searches lead back to Tom.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Mar. 16 2015 12:08:34)

I read somewhere many years ago that there are 5-6 different characteristics of humanity that resemble or look-a-like to some extent, and I've been told this can happen with people all over the world. Perhaps this is a similar happening.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Mar. 16 2015 12:12:38)

quote:

Unfortunately, I haven't found much on the vowel tone subject. I find it fascinating and surprised most searches lead back to Tom.


Obviously, the Spanish builders knew similar techniques and this is just a repeat of their scenarios that took place in antiquity. I've merely sought to emulate their path and found things that work, perhaps not exactly like their work but close enough to where you could call it akin to their work.

I'll try and get back to the Conde tutorial but first I have to refurbish a 1963 Ramirez flamenco guitar for a friend of mine; hopefully it won't take more than about a week. I think it will be for sale after I get through with it. The trick is to keep much of the old patina and spruce it up a little. The guitar is not in great condition but it has certain things that I like about it.

Mark just left the shop and headed home to Canada with all the guitar parts we built. He will assemble them when he gets home. His flamenco guitar that he brought with him was designed as a more classical sound; very nice but not flamenco.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Mar. 29 2015 19:10:35)

I just got through with a 1963 Ramirez repair. Had to do some fine tuning as the guitar was not up to a high tonal level; sounds kind of like an old Santos now.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu8yeI9zviByOdTRs3vusjQ




SephardRick -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Mar. 30 2015 14:07:21)

Mission impossible IMHO. I recently sold off a Ramirez negra classical. Nothing would bring out the trebles on it. The bass strings would dominate the trebles. It was a very frustrating guitar tone wise. Although technically, it played like a dream. I got rid of it.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Apr. 27 2015 13:00:54)

Well, the neck I made for Mark was not the best I could do so I made another one that came out very nice and I sent that to him.

Now, I have to make one more neck and I'll be free to return to the Conde tutorial.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jun. 14 2015 20:57:50)

I'm running a little behind but here is the last video.





SephardRick -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jun. 16 2015 15:15:43)

What?!!

I can't believe what I just saw and heard!

A little sanding in two areas on the top's surface and the strings now sound balanced.

Tom, you are a wizard!




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jun. 16 2015 16:38:58)

Well, it's a start but this is not the half of it. All this does is prep the top a little on balance,
but the actual intonation and string vowel tone has to be worked on.

Then I have to work the articulation and dynamic up and down the fingerboard.. etc.

And wizardry has nothing to do with it, as it is basically learning where to go to make adjustments with-in certain perimeters by a developed intuitive skill.

I'm sure M. Dammann does this, as well as Gernot Wagner, to some extent. Here is a replacement top done on a Dammann guitar.

http://lfdmguitars.ca/tag/dammann




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jun. 22 2015 6:29:42)

Here is some of the finishing process:

https://youtu.be/ETz2qhSJnFc




SephardRick -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jun. 22 2015 19:30:15)

Interesting how the Cr2K2O7 reacts with cedar. The rosewood box is a real beauty, even at this point.




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jul. 3 2015 20:32:35)

Here is a previous video on tone that I almost forgot about:

https://youtu.be/mZ03mIoqZ7E




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jul. 4 2015 22:59:54)

Here the the last video so far, with the top color:

https://youtu.be/9K6RqcBmPMc




SephardRick -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jul. 6 2015 15:21:07)

Has that Conde moaning tone, that really catches your ear. I am always amazed by your work!




Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Jul. 26 2015 15:37:44)

I took a short video today with everything put together but the tap plate, which will be installed next week. The top came out well and the tonal balance is good. I believe that after the guitar is played for awhile, it will develop into a fine instrument. I'll try and install the video later today.




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