Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Full Version)

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Tom Blackshear -> Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 22 2014 13:26:40)

Well, it's about time to try and do a semi tutorial building a modification of a 1968 Conde.

Nino Ricardo's 1955 Faustino Conde had a deep bass for a guitar of that size so I will use a slightly bigger pattern to try and emulate the bass. This 1968 Faustino guitar used to belong to Paco de Lucia's brother, Raymond.

It was sold to a friend of mine in 1969 at the San Antonio Hemisfair, when the two brothers performed here. The 50's and 60's Sobrinos de Esteso guitars were pretty much the same design but characteristically different from the less expensive Conde apprentice models.

My trip to Madrid in 1965 found me looking in different guitar shops to find a good guitar for myself. I checked out the Conde shop in town and was shown a Faustino Conde, which I should have bought except it sold for $350 at the time when a first class Ramirez flamenco was selling for $200 tourist price.

The money difference played a significant role with me since I was on a limited budget, so I bought a Ramirez right before I returned home. It was a good choice since I was able to resell it for $650 the same week, back home in Dallas, and this allowed me to keep my used Felix Manzanero to play for quite a few years.

I don't consider myself as a full time guitar maker, even though I have built guitars as a secondary business for 53 years; some of those years full time.

I think to be a full time maker, is if a person is born into it through a family operation, or someone who is just plain nuts, or doesn't know better. To be humorous, "What do you do when a guitar maker rings your front door bell; pay him for the Pizza."

But it was a passion that got me started and it is still passion for this art that has helped me maintain a long association with it. And in spite of any thoughts on the side, I imagine that practically every guitar maker will tell you the same.

I will attempt to supply pictures and videos with this tutorial to explain more fully what I'm doing with this modification, and because of this application, the guitar will be known as a Tom Blackshear guitar due to the motif change and structural modification.

But I pay homage to the Conde tradition, for this is where it started.

So, as soon as my wife gets home from work, I'll start taking pictures and a video to start the program.

And of course, you are welcome, at any time, to ask questions or make comments, serious I hope[;)]



Ricardo -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 22 2014 19:52:50)

Cool any photos of Ramon's guitar that you are copying? I know the guitar Paco plays in Rito y Geografia, the blanca with machine heads is 1968, there is a great zoom into the soundhole during the rumba when his buddy Carlos is playing a tremolo on it. I often wondered if that guitar, which looked quite used in the video, was actually Ramon's, as you see him playing it here:

http://youtu.be/OOt7MLkbgug



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 22 2014 22:12:52)

quote:

I often wondered if that guitar, which looked quite used in the video, was actually Ramon's, as you see him playing it here:


It's not the 1968 I drew the plan with, as the color was darker, although the rosette looks pretty close to the same, as I can remember. Anyway the 1971 recording has got to be another guitar, since Raymond's '68 guitar was sold in 1969.

I don't have the guitar here anymore, since my friend retired and moved out of town years ago. The playing scale was 660 CM but I'll modify this tutorial to 655 MM to see how it turns out.



Ricardo -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 23 2014 2:49:40)

quote:

quote:

I often wondered if that guitar, which looked quite used in the video, was actually Ramon's, as you see him playing it here:


It's not the 1968 I drew the plan with, as the color was darker, although the rosette looks pretty close to the same, as I can remember. Anyway the 1971 recording has got to be another guitar, since Raymond's '68 guitar was sold in 1969.

I don't have the guitar here anymore, since my friend retired and moved out of town years ago. The playing scale was 660 MM but I'll modify this tutorial to 655 MM to see how it turns out.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker


Darker color? It's black and white! [:D] Anyway there is a color picture of that guitar (Paco with Juan de la Vara) it was honey orange like most conde's. Moot point if it was sold in 69 anyway. I was also surprised how white those guitars look in black and white when in real life they are more orange...same deal with Melchor's guitar. One of my favorite details of those old guitars is the neck is stained a very dark red color.

Anyway, looking forward to how it turns out.

Ricardo



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 23 2014 3:37:55)

quote:

Darker color? It's black and white! Anyway there is a color picture of that guitar (Paco with Juan de la Vara) it was honey orange like most conde's.


Yes, I think it was more honey orange but more burnt orange than honey: maybe just sun exposure.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 23 2014 3:59:29)

Here is the first entry to get started for the tutorial:




orsonw -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 23 2014 7:25:31)

quote:

One of my favorite details of those old guitars is the neck is stained a very dark red color.


I had wondered if the darker colour neck was mahogany rather than cedar wood?

Thank you for posting the thread. I have no desire to build a guitar but I really enjoy reading the luthiers' discussions.



RobJe -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 23 2014 13:31:57)

quote:

One of my favorite details of those old guitars is the neck is stained a very dark red color.


quote:

I had wondered if the darker colour neck was mahogany rather than cedar wood


Through the fifties and early sixties a lot of these guitars had the necks varnished in what appears to be a thick synthetic finish obscuring the natural beauty of the wood. Many have been refinished in FP over the years but I have kept my 1965 example original complete with the marks made by cheap cejillas. You will also see that an authentic sweat mark is also visible on the back.



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SephardRick -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 23 2014 13:41:06)

quote:

Thank you for posting the thread. I have no desire to build a guitar but I really enjoy reading the luthiers' discussions


I would like to second that.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 24 2014 16:19:51)

Could you shrink the picture down a little so that it will stay with-in the margins of REGULAR POST, THANKS A MILLION.


quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe


Through the fifties and early sixties a lot of these guitars had the necks varnished in what appears to be a thick synthetic finish obscuring the natural beauty of the wood. Many have been refinished in FP over the years but I have kept my 1965 example original complete with the marks made by cheap cejillas. You will also see that an authentic sweat mark is also visible on the back.




RobJe -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 24 2014 18:12:23)

Shrunk - sorry for this Tom
By the way, this 1965 guitar has a completely different bracing from the one you describe.

Rob



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 24 2014 18:38:48)

Not sure about this but my 1965 pattern is about the same as the other two.

However, at the shop in the city, Condes were built different with 5 long braces across the top with no stiffeners at the bottom, most of the guitars were made by the apprentices for lessor cost under the Conde Hermanos label, rather than Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso. If you have an Esteso label then you might have a collectors item.

In 1965, these guitars cost about 90 to 120 dollars as compared to the Sobrinos which cost about $350, US. I'm basing the costs when I was there in 1965.

Perhaps you could draw a rough draft of the braces on your guitar, and check your label inside the guitar.



RobJe -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 24 2014 20:09:51)

The bracing is very similar to the 1951 Sabicas Barbero guitar (plan by R Brune available) but the harmonic bar is not inclined - just straight across. The five central braces seem to be parallel as in more modern Conde designs. This is just by looking with mirror - I don't have the means to take measurements and draw an accurate plan.

The label acknowledges Esteso's widow and reads Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso (picture below). This label was used for the best guitars (signed and dated) from about 1958, replacing the older black label that had the same words. The label continued after the death of Esteso's widow (c1960) until about 1966. It was replaced with the Sobrinos de Esteso label which lasted until about 1974. After that guitars were labelled Hermanos Conde - Sobrinos de Esteso.



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Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 25 2014 0:29:52)

I only know what I saw in Madrid and this seems to be something else I know nothing about[:o]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 25 2014 0:48:22)

I think I'll start the top first so that it can be glued up and resting while I build the other parts to the guitar: I'm starting with a top thickness of 2 to 2.1 MM and then I'll sand it down to close to 1.9 MM.



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estebanana -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 25 2014 3:39:58)

Can you demonstrate in some way how flexible the top will be at that thickness?



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 25 2014 13:53:22)

quote:

The label acknowledges Esteso's widow and reads Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso (picture below). This label was used for the best guitars (signed and dated) from about 1958,


Would you be kind enough to show a close up of the rosette?



orsonw -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 25 2014 13:57:36)

quote:

Condes were built different with 5 long braces across the top with no stiffeners at the bottom, most of the guitars were made by the apprentices for lessor cost under the Conde Hermanos label, rather than Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso


If this adds anything; I've seen a 1971 Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso with 5 parallel braces and two 'stiffeners' at the bottom.

Are these stiffeners sometimes referred to as closing braces/struts?



orsonw -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 25 2014 14:00:44)

quote:


The label acknowledges Esteso's widow and reads Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso (picture below). This label was used for the best guitars (signed and dated) from about 1958,


Would you be kind enough to show a close up of the rosette?


I think RobJe has posted it before, half way down this thread. It's a typical rosette, same as Paco's in the black and white kitchen film.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=157692&appid=&p=&mpage=4&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#158277



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 25 2014 14:17:47)

It's a fairly stiff Englemann spruce top, but not quite as stiff as European spruce. This video is done with moderate but firm pressure on the lower bout. And when the top is installed, I'll sand it to its preferred thickness to comply with proper top flex and tension. The original guitar was very thin, about 1/16th" around the sound-hole area.

When the guitar is finished, I'll try and give all the thicknesses of the complete top.




RobJe -> [Deleted] (Oct. 25 2014 14:42:51)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 25 2014 14:56:41



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 25 2014 14:49:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobJe

quote:

Would you be kind enough to show a close up of the rosette?


As requested. Rob





Mil Gracia

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LandKGuitars -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 26 2014 17:30:27)

Hi Tom, thanks for the tutorial. I was wondering where can i purchase those plans? Thank you.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 26 2014 17:46:25)

After this tutorial I'll get together with the GAL and see if they care to publish it. But right now, there is no publication for it.



LandKGuitars -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 27 2014 3:33:16)

thanks



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 30 2014 13:46:24)

Here is my technique for installing a rosette. I route out the circle just enough for the rosette to fit flush and then glue it in with LMI's white polyvinyl builders glue and then swell the rosette tight with hot water on a rag; clean up the water and clamp it overnight. This is basically the fitting process and then I'll show how the rosette is clamped down later.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCF9n836Stm_0XV2dMiaPupg



Morante -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Oct. 30 2014 14:32:38)

quote:

However, at the shop in the city, Condes were built different with 5 long braces across the top with no stiffeners at the bottom, most of the guitars were made by the apprentices for lessor cost under the Conde Hermanos label, rather than Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso. If you have an Esteso label then you might have a collectors item.

In 1965, these guitars cost about 90 to 120 dollars as compared to the Sobrinos which cost about $350, US. I'm basing the costs when I was there in 1965.


I have one of these, but I imagine that it is worth nothing[:@]



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Nov. 2 2014 15:07:26)

Here is the glued in rosette being cleaned of any excess glue, with a rag and a little water.





Tom Blackshear -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Nov. 2 2014 15:18:16)

The rosette is scraped after it has dried overnight.




rogeliocan -> RE: Building a modification of a 1968 Conde (Nov. 2 2014 15:57:09)

Interesting post, generous sharing of your time.
Do you have an idea of the consistency of specs for the guitars built at that time? I mean, have you had a chance to look at a decent sample set of guitars to verify that they were actually built the same way? and that, at least for the same builder (as their might be variance between builders in the same shop???).

I am curious to know if they had 'strict' building practices or if it was pretty lose.
Thanks



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