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Dear Luthiers, would you care to explain in more detail the actual differences in the construction details of classical and flamenco guitars.
What I understand is that they have a lower action and a different neck angle allowing for a lower bridge thus also for a smaller distance from the strings to the top. Of course they have a golpeador and as far as I understand, the angle of the head is different (bigger?).
But considering the sound there should be some significant differences in the top construction and body.
What is your view of it?
Thanks...
_____________________________
Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
The truth is that the two guitars look a lot similar in construction. The head angle is not specially different and thickness is about the same (Romanillos "Julian Bream" guitar is 2,1mm top and 1,9 - 2mm back) Besides what you have already said, you can see that the bracing of a flamenco, in general, have the braces running more parallel to the centerline. Again, ingeneral, we look for a soundboard which is less "controlled" by the bracing and often we brace less and lighter. The weight of the bridge is different, the flamenco being lighter, and, in general, the box is thinner, but there are many examples of same box thickness when you compare thick flamencos with thin classicals. Often the fingerboard is a bit thinner and often the neck as well.
As you can see, there are no rules and flamencos and classicals both come in a lot of different versions. I hope this helps a bit.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
The difference is that rasgueados sound like crap on classical guitars. And flameco guitars were desinged so classical guitarists can look down their noses at them.
Other than that they come from a common ancestor and are not that far apart genetically. It's more a construction of race than deep differences in DNA.
Classical guitars oppress the flamenco guitar, but in the end they shall be released.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
Early Flamenco Models where built by Santos Hernandez you can find alot of info on the web.. The thin soundboard and low action seem to have started with him - correct me if I am wrong..
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to Joan Maher)
Would you attribute the percussive fast response and the special sound of rasgueados mainly to the low action and distance of strings to top at the bridge, or is it more like the sum of all the little difference to classical guitars?
_____________________________
Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
Santos Hernandez defined the cypress guitar as the flamenco building for many of the great players of his time.
Gradually over time this has evolved as the flamenco guitar we know today at least this is how I see it.. Players have a set of requirements that develops via a style of play and luthiers meet and enhance those needs adding their own experience and craftsmanship
I have seen local gypsies in my village play flamenco on the street corner with old battered mass produced models.. You make music with whatever is at hand and it's not limited to a type of instrument..
I would attribute flamenco sound to a music tradition and a cultural state of mind rather than lower guitar action personally..
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
quote:
Would you attribute the percussive fast response and the special sound of rasgueados mainly to the low action and distance of strings to top at the bridge
No not at all. That has very little to do with it. What you are talking about has mostly to do with how the guitar is being played. The sound of a flamenco and the whole nature of a flamenco guitar has to do with what you have glued on the soundboard (inside and outside) and how you have shaped and balanced it out. Even though they may look very similar, there´s a big difference in how you balance out and voice a good flamenco guitar and a good classical guitar.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to Joan Maher)
With permission, as non-luthiers seem to participate as well:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Joan Maher
I would attribute flamenco sound to a music tradition and a cultural state of mind rather than lower guitar action personally..
Regarding the physical aspect; consider that material specifics of the flamenco guitar seem to have originally evolved from limits of budget. While classicals were supposed to be dressed noble, hence with hard woods, the building of flamenco guitars came along with connifer woods as the least expensive option. Lower density of light wood results in less sustain ( among other things ) which coincidentally also suited the practical demands for flamenco.
Who knows, maybe even the shallower sides came from budget restrictions too. They appear to contribute to the drier and separating sound as well.
And so the flamenco guitar initially emits a cheapo sound ( that I like to name as `cigar box timbre´ ), which has proven as actually perfect for the task and which has grown perfect to our ears as well.
Further detail like lower action, specially treated top etc. must have come over time with experience and players´demand.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
quote:
Would you attribute the percussive fast response and the special sound of rasgueados mainly to the low action and distance of strings to top at the bridge
No not at all. That has very little to do with it. What you are talking about has mostly to do with how the guitar is being played. The sound of a flamenco and the whole nature of a flamenco guitar has to do with what you have glued on the soundboard (inside and outside) and how you have shaped and balanced it out. Even though they may look very similar, there´s a big difference in how you balance out and voice a good flamenco guitar and a good classical guitar.
To add to what Anders said, classical guitars are very different from each other as well.
It depends of what the person wants to play and how. Some classical guitars are very close to flamenco guitars, and you can use flamenco guitars to play jazz or Bach or whatever you want. And with good success if you pick the guitar well.
Some classical guitars are built with the intension of emphasizing chords and crystal clarity in harmony. Those guitars do well with transcriptions of piano music and other classical music with close harmonic movement in the structure of the music. Another classical guitar might be better at sounding romantic and more flamenco, so they would maybe for the Spanish repertoire like Tarrega or Moreno Torroba etc. The music derived from Spanish popular music and folk song, but cast in a classical idiom.
Just an example- A classical guitar by Jim Redgate might be better suited for choral clarity and a Miguel Rogriguez classical might be more romantic sounding, each guitar could play the same music, but with a different emphasis on how the music works. One instrument might show the beauty of the harmony better and not have as lovely a singing voice in the melodic parts, the other might sing beautifully, but not separate the harmonic subtlety as well. So even in classical guitar there are a thousand shades of difference between intentions of players and how they can achieve them according to which type of classical guitar they choose. They may even choose a flamenco guitar to play classical music.
In general the attributes in a guitar that help a player to realize classical music are sustain in melodic passages and clear harmonic voicing in all parts of the fingerboard.
In flamenco guitars a shorter sustain helps keep the compas and rhythmic parts of the music clear. And the voice of the guitar is more narrow in its envelope of sound. The flamenco guitar emphasizes a narrower spectrum of sound as a result of being constructed to show less sustain. The guitar structure is made to react to the right hand to perform rhythmic motifs and ideas and this in turn effects the type of voice the guitar has.
So there are two different kinds of intention operating-
1- Flamenco guitars are intended to perform a primarily rhythmic function and are designed to stay out of the way of themselves harmonically. They are created to be able to stop and start fast when a player damps the strings to end or begin a rhythmic phrase.
2. Classical guitars are primarily made to produce clear harmony and sustained melodic singing even if that means the feel of the guitar does not lend itself naturally to rhythmic work like the fast starts and stops needed of a flamenco guitar.
There are many combinations of qualities that are mixed together in every guitar, and to make a guitar that has all the qualities is difficult. What happens is when you push the construction process to emphasize one type of quality, it takes strength away from another attribute. For example making a flamenco guitar more loose and rhythmically easy to articulate usually cuts down on the singing melodic aspect of the voice. In classical design the stiffness needed to give harmonic clarity often takes some thing from the flexibility of the guitar that makes it sound flamenco.
In a _very general sense_ if you are asking how does this happen in the structure of the top, the flamenco guitar top is designed to allow it to rock back and forth more in the direction of side to side across the top. The top is allowed to be slightly looser in the way the bridge moves and this is moderated by top stiffness and bridge flexibility and weight. The flamenco guitar top moves more side to side in a very subtle way allowing it to have less sustain and a more narrow envelope of sound. It's difficult to explain further because as I said there is not a lot of difference between classical guitars and flamenco guitars, but when each is being made the emphasis shifts from harmonic-melodic clarity to rhythmic clarity; and how the guitar maker pushes the guitar in either direction is very subtle if you want to blend the ideas together. If you want to make dramatic differences between a classical and a flamenco in sustain and reaction to rhythmic attack then there are major differences in how you structure the guitar.
So it's not always the case that the lines between a flamenco and a classical guitar are clear. It has to do with what your intention as a player is. If you wanted to make flamenco solo playing that required a lot of harmonic clarity and not so much jangly rasgueado a more classical guitar might work, but if you want to accompany dancers, a guitar with a more narrow spectrum of sound that has a cutting voice and 'stop on a dime' articulation might be better.
Musical intentions get blended all the time today so it is hard to say what is a 'classcal' and what is 'flamenco' except in the most general terms. At least that is my take on the situation at this time.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to Ruphus)
Many thanks for the detailed contributions! What I gather from all that is that it takes an experience luthier to ingrain all these little subtle differences into a flamenco guitar. And of course an experienced player to bring out the adequate sound ...
Thanks
_____________________________
Music is a big continent with different lascapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...
A good musical instrument is one that inspires one to express as free as possible
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rojarosguitar
... And of course an experienced player to bring out the adequate sound ...
I would say yes and no. Naturally, will a versed player know how to produce typical sounds, but on the other hand ... Flamenco guitars of the kind that I like a lot ( you roughly know how that would sound and feel like) carry their distinct flavour. A characteristic so hoarse, edgy and flappy ... prominently different from guitars you would categorize as classical.
Ruphus
PS: Maybe I should mention that I distinguish between guitars suited for playing flamenco ( of which I have two, which besides are responding really beautifully and are being very versatile, also very suitable for other genre), and what I consider thoroughbred flamenco guitars.
With what I wrote above I meant the thoroughbred kind.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to estebanana)
I don´t have any at hand to let it run on courses. In fact never owned such / missed out on a couple of opportunities. There is one waiting for me overseas now and as life likes to tease me, I can´t get it accross the pond. :O/
When I talk about Classical guitar and Flamenco guitar I get a nervous tick, because I don't feel like there is such a big gulf between the two ideas of playing "classical guitar" music and playing flamenco. Like I said when I ended my post:
"Musical intentions get blended all the time today so it is hard to say what is a 'classcal' and what is 'flamenco' except in the most general terms. At least that is my take on the situation at this time."
The essay by Brune' goes deeper into issue than I can credibly write about. Highly recommended reading.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
Stephen,
For me as well all the nylon players are of the same family. However, between a typical flamenco guitar and a classical there exist noticeable differences.
I only read the first posts of the thread Ramzi linked to, and to my understanding Andy summed up the differences pretty well there.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to rojarosguitar)
There is a whole spectrum of guitars from, say, Barbero to Smallman.
There are lots of small factors that add up to a guitar being classical or flamenco. The action and setup are definitely no small part. It's basically the whole approach that a luthier takes to the instrument, and every decision on everything from the bridge to the back bracing will be an endeavor to steer the sound towards the tone they are looking for.
At the end of the day the DNA is pretty similar, like Chimps and Humans.
The materials are a pretty big factor. If I make a cedar top negra, and string it up with higher action, it will probably sound reasonable as a classical guitar, but the rasgueados will probably be more defined and the overtones will be less ringy.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
quote:
At the end of the day the DNA is pretty similar, like Chimps and Humans.
I was thinking that they are both of a common ancestor of Torresepithicus Robustus, but that they evolved specialized traits. The taxonomy is tricky however as Flamencoensis Cypressus and Flamencoensis Dalbergensis are dateable to the 1910 to 1920 layers in the stratigraphy of the Manuel Rift Valley. However the Modern taxonomical order known as Classicus Pretentuoso is only known in the literature post WWII and citations are spotty at best.
The taxonomy is disordered and needs to be redacted. We really are waiting for evidence in the fossil record pre WWII which connects the taxonomical designation Classicus to the true tree of the Torresepithicus line.
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
When I talk about Classical guitar and Flamenco guitar I get a nervous tick, because I don't feel like there is such a big gulf between the two ideas of playing "classical guitar" music and playing flamenco. Like I said when I ended my post:
Are you refering to the tremolo aspect?
I don't think there are any similitude in classical music when it comes to flamenco accompaniment. Or am I missing something maybe. Now if you want to reduce Flamenco to soloista side, I don't think it's fair (and relevant) coz that's only a tiny part of the Arte.
_____________________________
"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
RE: Flamenco and Classical Guitars -... (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
quote:
When I talk about Classical guitar and Flamenco guitar I get a nervous tick, because I don't feel like there is such a big gulf between the two ideas of playing "classical guitar" music and playing flamenco. Like I said when I ended my post:
Are you refering to the tremolo aspect?
I don't think there are any similitude in classical music when it comes to flamenco accompaniment. Or am I missing something maybe. Now if you want to reduce Flamenco to soloista side, I don't think it's fair (and relevant) coz that's only a tiny part of the Arte.
I'm not going to explain it. I'm going to let that stand as is because it is provocative. People should do their own thinking.
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