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Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus


Have you ever hear of Leo Brouwer? His output far exceeds Pacos.




He once was a special guest at Rotterdam Conservatory, giving a masterclass of a week. My father (head teacher of the classical guitar department) made sure the students prepared/covered most of the repertoire and recorded the whole session on a dozen audio tapes.
He recently checked if i would mind if he gave away those tapes to 1 of those students. Since it is not really my cup of tea i had no objection :-).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2014 23:23:25
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

How can you not know that's an inflammatory statement aholeus?????
You instigate just for the sake of it. People like you are why the world doesn't run a smoothly as it should. You are a problem creator not a problem solver. Humans are social animals and cooperating effectively and efficiently is what makes a good human. You sir are a bad human.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2014 23:42:27
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to aeolus

quote:

Have you ever hear of Leo Brouwer? His output far exceeds Pacos.


Oh dear. And here was me thinking these guys are being a bit hard on you. Brouwer?

'Output' is the right word. His music is torture. Paco's music is the touchstone of flamenco and loved by millions who have no idea it is flamenco, as well as being wonderful. We're comparing beauty to bullsheet mate.

If we leave all those poor struggling classical guitarists out of this (it's not as if they petitioned you to post their efforts) Paco is more Bach than Brouwer, more Delius than Duarte.

He transcended his art. Just listen man. I'm not here to put down all those characters who somehow got to be composers through classical guitar but one must get a grip on reality here.

If Paco's art is not generally perceived as comparable to the truly great composers then it is simply misunderstood for the time being. I used to be told I 'didn't understand the nuances' (really) when I noticed that every single piece of 'Brouwer' I ever heard (or played, god help us) was complete and utter sheeeyit. (Coincidence? You decide ;-)

Exuse me now, I have to go take a Brouwer.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 9 2014 23:49:08
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to aeolus

Aeolus I dont like it when people are rude to you, but honestly this Leon Brewer guy sucks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 0:20:09
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

Paco, when he as at his apex, was moving. It wasn't just intellectual....it was emotional and I think that gets lost sometimes

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 0:22:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

When a classical guitarist composes something worthwhile then......


Have you ever hear of Leo Brouwer? His output far exceeds Pacos.




In your cuban landscape dreams it does.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 3:07:29
 
pjn

 

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to mark74

Hello, I'd like to say that this would be a more interesting thread except that we're all showing a certain narrow-minded lack of sophistication at this point.

Leo Brouwer's music, for most classical guitarists, is essential repertoire because it is inventive, exploits the guitar's range of possibilities more than any other composer including Villa-Lobos, and is perfectly conceived for the instrument so that you get sort of maximum bang for the buck, so to speak.

Although i mainly play flamenco now, I did a Masters in guitar and played some of Brouwer's music, specifically "Elogio de la danza" and "El Decameron Negro" which I would recommend be listened to before we say things like "so and so sucks." This is great guitar music and if you can't appreciate it I think it's your problem, not his.

Or perhaps I didn't get that we were just trying to tweak Mr. Aoleoleos, who I suppose deserves it even though he's obviously a young, emotionally and socially unformed kid and isn't responsible for the things he says; but let's not let the foro devolve any further, because the adults here are going to leave.

I find it offensive and childish when great and celebrated artists are dismissed by those of us who aren't worthy artistically of cleaning their bathroom.

Nevertheless, that doesn't apply to the child who plays Paco's Tarantas as if it is Rachmaninoff -- this betrays the fact that he does not understand where flamenco comes from emotionally or how it is put together. When Paco plays the piece, you hear a singer in the copla, and you hear the accompanist as well.

Or beef with Romero is for the same reason I think -- there is a misunderstanding of what flamenco is -- it was not created as a vehicle for "virtuosos" to show off with. Paco and about a half dozen others are capable of transcending this over the long haul.

And if you don't think Brouwer can write good, try his Concerto #3 (Elegiaco); this piece should move you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 3:40:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to pjn

quote:

we're all showing a certain narrow-minded lack of sophistication at this point.


ARE we now???

quote:

This is great guitar music and if you can't appreciate it I think it's your problem, not his.


a specific comparison of Paco de Lucia and Brouwer where being made regarding compositional OUTPUT...of quality we can assume. It was never about music appreciation of composer X.

quote:

Or perhaps I didn't get that we were just trying to tweak Mr. Aoleoleos, who I suppose deserves it even though he's obviously a young, emotionally and socially unformed kid and isn't responsible for the things he says;


He is like 85 years old or something, got bent out of shape over an overview of segovia's career made by a (ahem) flamenco guitarist who had no right to do so (so he feels), and hasn't let it go since and continues to troll about the same taranta as if to push buttons.

quote:

And if you don't think Brouwer can write good,


I admit, a lot of his pieces fall nicely under the fingers for guitar, so it's fun to play. But to listen to? Anyway, back to flamenco, the ultimate guitar music thank you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 3:52:47
 
pjn

 

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Ricardo

Excuse me, read above, about Brouwer: "His music is torture;" "Honestly this Leon Brewer sucks." "Have to go take a Brouwer."

Not very sophisticated.

About Aolewuss: "You are a problem creator not a problem solver. Humans are social animals and cooperating effectively and efficiently is what makes a good human. You sir are a bad human."

Not very nice, stooping to his level.

"When a classical guitarist composes something worthwhile then...... "

Hmm, not very broad-minded.

See what I'm getting at? I think Paco de Lucia is the greatest guitar player who ever lived, OK, can I, like, hang out with all you smart cool guys?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 4:43:14
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

Lololol, I was gunna say I like mine the best but "I have to go take a Brouwer." Is pretty dang good!

Pjn, I know aelouious, and I know he just likes to instigate to cause strife, so there's really no need to feel bad.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 4:48:04
 
NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

I do have a feeling he's trolling. If so, hats off to him...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 5:28:38
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to aeolus

quote:

Really, I am not trying to wind up anyone. I posted this thread in all innocence. The vicious responses such as yours are regrettable. (to me)


Aeolus, the post I made was not intended to be vicious, so apologies for offending you.
It was a genuine and direct expression of my total frustration with you on this forum.
And came just very shortly after your "anal retentive" comment - so it seems you can give it out but you can't take it back.

If I had wanted to be intentionally offensive to you personally I could have thought of other things to say, but that would have demeaned both of us.

You say you posted this thread "in all innocence" but it is a replica of another thread you posted not so long ago - which is why I said you don't seem to be learning anything.
So either you have a very short memory and are highly insensitive to the responses of others, or you are intentionally trolling/baiting the forum.

There are many points in this thread that many people have made that you consistently fail to take on.
I don't know if you read all the posts, or if you don't understand what people are saying, or if you just forget them instantly and carry on as before.

But whether you intend to or not, you are annoying a lot of people here.
You repeatedly try to "compare" classical and flamenco guitar.
And to compare classical guitar more favourably to flamenco.

This is a flamenco forum.
It follows that people here like and/or play flamenco, so running flamenco and flamenco guitarists down isn't going to make you any friends.

There are some very high level players, and some very knowledgeable aficionado's that take the time to share their playing and knowledge here.
If you really want to learn something about flamenco you need to start listening to them.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 13:03:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to pjn

quote:

Not very sophisticated.


Clearly, you are a fan of his work and take offense. The comments themselves, in context, are quite clever and amusing. Lighten up.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 13:38:59
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 22:58:41
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

My reason for this post was to show that Paco's greatest achievement in composition
(in my estimation) has been appreciated classical players. I had not reckoned that the foro regulars would consider classical players in such low regard and any comparison with the demigod Paco sacrilegious. One finds it difficult to deal with such emotional responses.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 23:28:13
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Erik van Goch

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 0:07:54
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

I enjoyed very much that Leo Brouwer video that Ricardo posted, reminds me of Philip Glass.

What genre is that?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 0:21:26
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Anyway, back to flamenco, the ultimate guitar music thank you.


Agreed!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 1:35:06
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to pjn

quote:

Leo Brouwer's music, for most classical guitarists, is essential repertoire because it is inventive, exploits the guitar's range of possibilities more than any other composer including Villa-Lobos, and is perfectly conceived for the instrument so that you get sort of maximum bang for the buck, so to speak.


Zzzzzzzzzzzz.......



quote:

I find it offensive and childish when great and celebrated artists are dismissed by those of us who aren't worthy artistically of cleaning their bathroom


You're being too hard on yourself. I'm available, but expensive, if Leo needs the 'music room' cleaned.

Mr.Pfg-flamenco, no need to get thy knickers in a twist. We get it. But I'm telling Villa Lobos what you said and I'm telling you he'll tear your fcking heart out. He's crazy.

What has the world come to when one cannot provide the fruit of a thoughtful and considered analysis without people coming and hitting one over the head with their masters degrees? I have a degree from the Cornhole School of Apres Concert Cocktail Sausage Chat and I can tell you that while Brouwer is 'essential' it is only essential if the aim is to empty the room of music lovers.

You have demonstrated my point, albeit your name suggests you can not only judge music more clearly than I but play it better. Worst of all, as you have the flamenco in your name your dck is much bigger than mine, thus I am lost.

However, you have taken us to the core of the matter. The lack of rigor. The delusions.

I haven't listened to the guys cited here, in order that you can scoff at will but, While I applaud all efforts to play Paco's music, it does serve as a litmus test.

The great thing about Brouwer, if yer a classical guitarist looking for essential repertoire that does something or other better than anyone else, including poor old Villa Lobos (he will be miffed I tell you), is that the audience have no idea if you are getting it right or wrong. (And don't forget all those cocktail sausages afterwards; the best part.)

But here we have the paradox. The same is true for Paco's music. These guys can plop a big smelly Brouwer right onto the front row using all their finely-honed apoyando and tirando skills (there are others but I am not allowed to divulge them here) and the audience is none the wiser. One might overhear the odd dissentful comment that the composer did not exploit the guitars' possibilities quite as deeply as that tune he wrote after a bad curry down at the Cuban Curry Shack, but any errors or mistakes or sloppiness, or waggling heads or tongues sticking out or squeaks and other extraneous crap must all have been written. It is therefore valid. The actual sound becomes a non-issue. There is simply a space from which tones spawn and all is good, all is worthy.

However, when we hear Paco played by someone who thinks if he can figure out the timing from the score then his rascuedos will be picture-perfect, we hear something quite different.

It's Grisha I feel sorry for. Here is a guy who can play Paco. But those audiences, versed in those who exploited the instrument in this way and that, can they tell the difference? (Never mind Grisha, a broader audience, unhindered by **** theories and planted tastes can.)

Bach wasn't around to kick Segovia's arse (oh dear, there I go again, I am nothing, scum I tell you, scum! How dare I?).

But this, how you call it? Flamingo muzak? It reveals the fundamental flaws in basic technique that seem to be built-in to the actual 'theory' of it. That some individuals almost overcome those handicaps, to play 'classical guitar' seems miraculous.

I don't like the Spice girls either. Can I clean their toilets too please? Or will you come to their rescue with your mighty masters degree! My dad's got a pee aych dee and he's coming round to your house.

Lighten up. As long as these delusions persists we philistines have a duty to show the shape of our brow. (no, no I promised grandpapa that I would never pun again!)

Hands up anyone who ever played Brouwer in a resuarant, all night long. Now, how many people were still there at the end?

Brouwer may have done all the things you say. He may be important (when tiny little pork sausages are the only thing at stake) he may be a giant, a great genius towering above us all ('xcept you and the other people who talk about it as if it were not a ruse) but it is not awful music, like the Spice Girls; it isn't music at all. There are a couple of classical guitarists out there writing nice stuff. It's very brave of them. But maybe the market for this kid-on 'we have a repertoire! and it all goes pee-paw' classical guitar is stuff is done.

It sounds like government-aided music to me. In the UK (and other countries where 'artists' are helped by the public purse) a lot of high-brow, arty-farties were handed a living from those committees that so love those emperor clothes. I have no idea how Leo got anyone to listen. But there you are. Right there. Explaining it.

You're wasting your time here, get yourself down to the conservatoire. With that degree you'll be a cert for a job. (A masters? Not even a ****ey bachelor's. Impressive. Yo mama must be proud and I am humbled.)

In the meantime. Do you know what I need right now? And I promise to clean up the room afterwards if my Brouwer proves too unwieldy.

Maximum bang for the buck, so to speak. (said you, without even a red face)

Go play Brouwer all night long in front of any real audience and see if someone doesn't offer you a smack in lieu of stopping the racket. It's not music, it's an insult to the intellgence.

Get a grip on yourself, for god's sake man, before it's too late....

(And try to bear in kind that I was talking about music... output... I was not talking about senior B for whom I could only wish good things. Try harder to examine the text you read, before insulting people.)

Can you please send a copy of your degree to the address below for verification:

www.brouwerfanzine.gotporkchops.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 8:56:30
 
chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 9:30:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Leñador

This thread is a stupid & stupidier nightmarish affair that is beyond comprehenshun.....

but I snorted like a mofo then I read this:

JIZMOGLOBIN!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 12:28:52
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

Skulhedface!!!
RIP Oderus.......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 14:00:04
 
pjn

 

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to z6

Actually I make my living playing flamenco, and teaching flamenco, and as I said I think Paco is the greatest guy of all time; my post is about being open-minded, fair, and courteous to other musicians, styles, etc., so your potty-mouthed, puerile response certainly demonstrates the type of thing I'm talking about.

You and your socially maladjusted friends are welcome to this sad excuse for a "discussion" forum.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 14:50:01
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to aeolus

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus
Hmm... Classical guitarists play in all keys without capo. I'm on a learning curve you see.


Ever played with Capo on 12th fret?
Thats not easy man.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 15:07:10
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Arash

How is that done? You press the guitar against a traffic pole by the 12th fret?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 15:16:29
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

Aeolus - to address your comment regarding what you perceive as "extreme hatred of classical guitarists". To speak for myself, most classical music elicits little or no emotional response from me which is the main thing I am looking for. Let's assume this is what most flamenco aficionados are after. For me, it's as simple as that. These guitarists you've posted, while technically capable, are just plain boring IMO. What you're seeing here is people who are more or less indifferent to this kind of music having an emotional response to your approach of constantly posting this stuff on a hardcore flamenco forum.

It was clear to me very early in my flamenco journey that this music contains pure emotions, which unavoidably carry over into the discussions. As an example, listen to Paco Valdepenas, Gaspar de Utrera and Manuel Molina talk about the essence and state of flamenco in Tao Ruspoli's Flamenco Bohemio youtube series. The discussion is passionate to the point of anger and despair in some cases. The Rito y Geografia series is also chock full of emotionally charged discussions. For me, this is one of the best parts of flamenco - it's a music and lifestyle charged with pride and passion that stands alone in a world of dwindling values and substance.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 15:53:54
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

How is that done? You press the guitar against a traffic pole by the 12th fret?


Here I show you how to play a nice taranta with capo on 12th fret





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 15:56:22
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Arash

I only need that chord to play a taranta? I play lots of tarantas everyday!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 15:59:22
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Sr. Martins

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

I play lots of tarantas everyday!


yeah but my tranta has fire and is flamboyant.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 16:05:50
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: Paco's masterpiece (in reply to Erik van Goch

trollanta

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Ryan
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 16:16:25
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