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Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 607
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmburns

Dubious and probably futile attempt and trying to look smart:

Cante jondo (grande?): seguiriyas, soleares, bulerias, cana, martinete, etc.

Cante grande (intermedio?): malaguenas, mineras, tarantas, tientos (? = levantes = fandangos?)

Cante chico: alegrias, boleras, bulerias (?), fandangos (?), nanas, rodena, sevillanas, tangos, etc.

fandangos, sevillanas, rumbas (where do rumbas fit above?) may or may not be flamenco depending on where you sit.

Solea and Seguiriya seem to be the "pure" forms of flamenco.

Fandangos is definitely not cante chico. It's considered to be one of the pillars of flamenco, along with soleares and siguiriyas. Fandangos is actually the basis for malaguenas (fandangos de malaga), tarantas, etc...

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Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2013 19:58:30
 
gmburns

Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmburns

Dubious and probably futile attempt and trying to look smart:

Cante jondo (grande?): seguiriyas, soleares, bulerias, cana, martinete, etc.

Cante grande (intermedio?): malaguenas, mineras, tarantas, tientos (? = levantes = fandangos?)

Cante chico: alegrias, boleras, bulerias (?), fandangos (?), nanas, rodena, sevillanas, tangos, etc.

fandangos, sevillanas, rumbas (where do rumbas fit above?) may or may not be flamenco depending on where you sit.

Solea and Seguiriya seem to be the "pure" forms of flamenco.

Fandangos is definitely not cante chico. It's considered to be one of the pillars of flamenco, along with soleares and siguiriyas. Fandangos is actually the basis for malaguenas (fandangos de malaga), tarantas, etc...


I guess I was suggesting that maybe there's different types of fandangos that fit into different categories, which is what I gather with bulerias, too.

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Greg Mason Burns - Artist
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 9 2013 21:19:33
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I never said malagueñas are cante mineros, but both are under the umbrella of "levante".

I'm gonna paid more attention on this from now on, when I read or heard something about the Fandangos forms derivated from the Verdiales.
I never read a flamencology books, so my knowledge is surely limited. But I do not think I ever heard this term of "Levante" in the way you presented it.
Until now I thought that Levante was a reference to a corpus of cante that only include stuff like murciana, minera, cartagenera, levantica, cante de madruga, tarantas.


http://www.fundacioncantedelasminas.org/banco_datos/?tag=antologia-cantes-de-levante

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 0:22:34
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Bulerias2005

Bulerias is cante chico

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 1:02:08
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Leñador

quote:


Bulerias is cante chico


The classification into chico and grande is something of a generalisation. It is often said that there is no cante grande nor cante chico, only cantaores grandes and cantaores chicos. This is another generalisation.

Depending on the letras and the soniquete given by the cantaor, a cante chico may be made grande and vice versa.

I have often heard bulería and tangos gitanos sung as grande, though much more often as chico.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 9:47:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: gmburns

Dubious and probably futile attempt and trying to look smart:

Cante jondo (grande?): seguiriyas, soleares, bulerias, cana, martinete, etc.

Cante grande (intermedio?): malaguenas, mineras, tarantas, tientos (? = levantes = fandangos?)

Cante chico: alegrias, boleras, bulerias (?), fandangos (?), nanas, rodena, sevillanas, tangos, etc.

fandangos, sevillanas, rumbas (where do rumbas fit above?) may or may not be flamenco depending on where you sit.

Solea and Seguiriya seem to be the "pure" forms of flamenco.

Fandangos is definitely not cante chico. It's considered to be one of the pillars of flamenco, along with soleares and siguiriyas. Fandangos is actually the basis for malaguenas (fandangos de malaga), tarantas, etc...


I tried to be clear. The fandangos from huelva are not cante jondo...in fact some dont' consider them flamenco. Or rather there are musicians and singers that are NOT flamencos that only do fandango from huelva. The free or freer form derivatives of the original form from huelva WERE created by and ARE interpreted by flamencos. To sound important many great singers call those "fandango grande". Estela always points out they dont' use that term anymore and call them "naturales". Clearly, the personalized versions of fandango, and fandango de huelva, are kept separate from what is considered "cante jondo" which are tona, martinete, siguiriyas, Romances (precursor to solea), Solea, tientos (4/4 derivative of solea). Because Cantiñas are happy, they and the up tempo off shoots of solea family (buleria, alegria, tango etc) are called "chico". Of course they can be delivered very heavy duty if need be by maestros, so these are generalizations.

The malagueña derivatives however, unlike the fandango derivatives, are considered serious cante, but NOT cante jondo either. IMO the letras of all the cantes de la mina songs and Malagueñas etc, can be just as devastating as siguiriyas or solea. But the melodies are "prettier" so I think that is why aficionados generalize. Again, I dont' consider this cante grande chico or jondo thing very important either, rather the MUSCAL form and structure is.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 13:39:32
 
gmburns

Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo

ok, so jondo - grande > chico unless the fandango sounds mean...got it.

Just kidding of course.

I totally understand your point about structure and letras, and can imagine a sarcastic alegria being quite serious. For me for now, since I can't really distinguish between the different types by listening (though I feel I'm starting to hear contrasts on my grooveshark playlist), it helps to be able to google and find recordings based on the different palos. Progress is being made, albeit slowly.

I appreciate your responses, they help a lot and actually confirm a lot of what I'm finding myself, without the ability to verbalize it, of course, so thanks.

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Greg Mason Burns - Artist
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 16:12:15
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The form of Tientos is VERY similar to Solea. Tangos and bulerias too.
quote:

tientos (4/4 derivative of solea).


I never thought or heard of this before, always had them in mind as separate 'cos of different rhythm.... how do you hear tientos as similar to solea? as both having Phrygian melodies, and having II I progression and V I cambio?

and how did tientos derive from soleá? I never heard that before, but I guess would explain those similar melodies/progressions.

I used to always hear that tangos evolved as a lighter faster version of tientos, like they took the old slow form and started speeding up the ending and tangos developed from that. Then more recently I read a different story, that tangos was the old form, and tientos developed in the café cantante era as a more jondo slower syncopated version of the old tangos....

(this is a bit like the old chestnut of which came first, Caña/Polo or Soleá? I have read really convincing arguments for both! )

so what's the story with tientos evolving from soleá? and tangos? from soleá too? and before or after tientos?

(you can turn the irony detectors off, I'm being serious...)

EDIT: but maybe I need to turn my irony detectors way up...?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 17:33:53
 
Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 607
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Bulerias2005

I've never heard of tientos being a 4/4 derivative of soleares. In fact, if I remember correctly, Humberto told me that tientos originally was referred to as "tangos lento", and so in fact was derived from the tangos... is there some truth to that?

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Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 20:50:28
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1904
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

In fact, if I remember correctly, Humberto told me that tientos originally was referred to as "tangos lento", and so in fact was derived from the tangos... is there some truth to that?


In Cádiz, it is accepted that Enrique el Mellizo invented tientos by slowing down the tangos. This is related by Aurelio who said "Enrique fue el que hizo los tientos".

Whether this is true or not no quiero opinar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 21:03:56
 
timoteo

 

Posts: 219
Joined: Jun. 22 2012
From: Seattle, USA

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Morante

This site has a lot of information about Tientos, and a lot of history (mixed with speculation) about the palo and its origins:

http://flamencodelahistoria.com/palos-del-flamenco/tientos/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 21:22:54
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to timoteo

You mean Enrique el Mellizo, the guy who performed the famous so called Levante del Mellizo de los mineros

If tientos is eventually related to tangos then we only need to wait for Ricardo's explanations to enlight us about how Tangos form fall under the soleares umbrella...

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 21:56:11
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Morante

I heard tientos were invented by Jesus Martinez in a Mexican restaurant in Melrose Park, Illinois
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 22:08:51
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark74

To preserve Ida y vuelta logic, it will sound more convincing if the restaurant were Colombiano.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2013 22:19:29
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

and how did tientos derive from soleá? I never heard that before, but I guess would explain those similar melodies/progressions.


Similar yes. So similar in fact, some singers can use the exact same letra for both. All the soleas have the similar "cambio" for the ending, tangos and tientos same deal. They are distinguished by the first line of verse. Compas used to always be faster than we hear them today so it is easy to see why Tientos could have come AFTER tangos, compas wise. But structurally (melodic contours and harmonies) they are same as Solea structure. Same goes for the versions of both buleria (jaleo) and tangos from extremadura, but they have their own melody and chords a little different, but structure is the same.

SIguiriyas or alegrias are not structured this way. Nor are fandangos. Hence we can put em together in a family of songs. Trust me, I am all for keeping everything separate and labeling every thing uniquely, but as an accompanist it helps to get a blue print structure to work with so one can learn "on the job" so to speak as we encounter new variations.

I love to point out one of my favorite forms for singing was the fandango por solea. It fell out of fashion but it was so cool to take the folk song and really more than just stretch it, but force it in to the sophisticated rhythm of solea. Just because the compas is the same, it is not fair to stick that into the "solea family" of songs. THe song is simply fandango yet we keep the compas on guitar of solea. I look at tientos as a sort of "solea" in the compas of 4....if you get my drift.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 13:27:16
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Land of Daniel Boone

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to gmburns

greg, how do you climb with fingernails? prior to taking up flamenco i did some bouldering and gym climbing--a minor pursuit as whitewater squirt boarting and slalom racing were my addictions. now having nails i can only imagine the difficulties with some holds due to protruding nails--to say nothing of the damage to them.

as for climbing, yeah, chocks, nuts and cams beat pitons. reinhold is to alpining as paco is to flamenco!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 15:33:34
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo

Teresa Giudici was arguing about with Caroline Manzo on The Real Housewives of New Jersey. She was insisting Jesus invented tientos one day when he ran out of flour tortillas
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 16:18:59
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Similar yes. So similar in fact, some singers can use the exact same letra for both. All the soleas have the similar "cambio" for the ending, tangos and tientos same deal. They are distinguished by the first line of verse.
quote:

SIguiriyas or alegrias are not structured this way. Nor are fandangos.
I never thought of it quite like this, but now you say it it seems obvious. I knew cambio was the same chord sequence, but never thought that there was anything more to it than coincidence.... but I have heard same letras used for tangos and bulerias

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 16:29:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo

quote:

You mean Enrique el Mellizo, the guy who performed the famous so called Levante del Mellizo de los mineros


Look bro, I felt same as you . My first encounter with Malagueñas was Mellizo style, and I would never in my right mind have been convinced that it was the same form as a taranto. Further I thought it "weird" to couple granaina and Malagueñas together, as was often done. But after many years and studying OTHER styles of malagueñas, I started to see the connection until finally I was like "damn, they are the SAME form...". Mellizo's version is beautiful and ornate, but the main form is there still. It really was listening to Chacon I think accompanied in Taranta key by Montoya that made it painful obvious the connections. And Malagueñas and Cartageneras accompanied in the granaina key.

Now a days things are more "clear" for guitar players, more codified and sadly typical I would say....at the cost of quality and quantity of cante. There is much less variation these days, the same old styles keep getting done, and many styles are simply extinct from singers repertoire. The excitement of aficionados these days is to find an "encyclopedic" amature cantaor that resurrects old cantes with love, but limited abilities. THe young talented singers don't create new levante songs....they create canciones por bulerias or tangos.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 17:30:06
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

THe young talented singers don't create new levante songs....they create canciones por bulerias or tangos.
If numbers of hits on Youtube attest to anything a lot of them seem to score their biggest hits with rumbas more than anything else..and as you say tangos and bulerias seem to be in huge supply

I think Marina Heredia's songs with the most hits are rumbas for instance...I don't know if thats an indication of what is selling best in Spain, but I think it might be
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 18:07:41
 
gmburns

Posts: 157
Joined: Nov. 20 2012
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to keith

quote:

ORIGINAL: keith

greg, how do you climb with fingernails? prior to taking up flamenco i did some bouldering and gym climbing--a minor pursuit as whitewater squirt boarting and slalom racing were my addictions. now having nails i can only imagine the difficulties with some holds due to protruding nails--to say nothing of the damage to them.

as for climbing, yeah, chocks, nuts and cams beat pitons. reinhold is to alpining as paco is to flamenco!


Keith, I don't actually do anything musically with flamenco except listen to it and try to pick brains here, so my fingernails are quite short for the purpose of climbing. Also, it makes it easier to clean the paint out from underneath them.

If Renhold is to alpine as Paco is to flamenco, then Paco must not like the young guns too much unless they're learning from the ground up (see what I did there?).

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Greg Mason Burns - Artist
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 18:20:09
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark74

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark74

quote:

THe young talented singers don't create new levante songs....they create canciones por bulerias or tangos.
If numbers of hits on Youtube attest to anything a lot of them seem to score their biggest hits with rumbas more than anything else..and as you say tangos and bulerias seem to be in huge supply

I think Marina Heredia's songs with the most hits are rumbas for instance...I don't know if thats an indication of what is selling best in Spain, but I think it might be


Well of course man...but I was not even going there as many aficionados don't consider Rumba "flamenco" even. I was pointing out that creativity in flamenco is not "dead" since the golden age, rather the genres of buleria or tango/tanguillo, the up tempo forms, have stolen away from the potential the other forms always offered as creative canvases. There are some rare exceptions, often it's the guitarist composing things for the maestro singer to learn and interpret. Isidro, Manolo Sanlucar's brother for example, creates a lot of things in other forms for singers.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2013 18:43:57
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Look bro, I felt same as you .

I heard you. I'm not closed mind. You stated that letras of x palos could be used in y palos by cantaores. Big deal!

speaking of levante flavour look at this one, tarantos letras could be sung for bulerias (the first 2min).




I heard that everything could fit in buleria compas even the phone directory book....
So show me one Alcala letra sung for tientos (or vice versa) and i'll shut my mouth. And even if you pointed this to me i'm not sure i'll buy your version

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 16:23:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo

quote:

So show me one Alcala letra sung for tientos (or vice versa) and i'll shut my mouth. And even if you pointed this to me i'm not sure i'll buy your version


Hmmm. Maybe you should just shut your mouth period? Just kidding. Think whatever you want, I don't really care man. If you know what you are doing good for you.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 12 2013 21:25:52
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo

Look at those thick mullets of hair! Not a balding person there..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2013 20:16:18
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

quote:

So show me one Alcala letra sung for tientos (or vice versa) and i'll shut my mouth. And even if you pointed this to me i'm not sure i'll buy your version

Hmmm. Maybe you should just shut your mouth period? Just kidding. Think whatever you want, I don't really care man. If you know what you are doing good for you.


might be useful for me to hear soleá letra por tientos if you've got a sample?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2013 20:42:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

quote:

So show me one Alcala letra sung for tientos (or vice versa) and i'll shut my mouth. And even if you pointed this to me i'm not sure i'll buy your version

Hmmm. Maybe you should just shut your mouth period? Just kidding. Think whatever you want, I don't really care man. If you know what you are doing good for you.


might be useful for me to hear soleá letra por tientos if you've got a sample?



Few extra minutes to find a sample? It takes a long time to find exact examples of individual letras. Long time ago I did that caracol letra "no doblen Campanas" to show how the same lyric works for solea, buleria por solea and buleria....and that took forever. To get started here at 4:28

era morenita y pobre
mas morena (or pobre) la canela
se la comen los señores

it's a lyric I have heard in bulerias a lot and even solea a couple times. But he is singing a totally different style melody in tangos, and it works just as ANY LETRA could work over tangos or tientos, structurally. Tientos lends itself to 4 line verse even nicer with certain melodies. When I come across a solea version or exact letra of tientos I will add it, but don't feel like hunting to proove a point now.

http://youtu.be/DVKEIDIhQXM

EDIT...damn found bulerias version pretty quick...4:48 same letra:

http://youtu.be/NHMnaUoEXq0

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2013 12:10:27
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3342
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

When I come across a solea version or exact letra of tientos I will add it, but don't feel like hunting to proove a point now.


thanks for the links. I'm not asking you to prove the point, I'm just interested in hearing them, and knowing more about it. I have a Carmen Linares track where she sings a letra por Bulerías that I have heard and accompanied por tangos, so I know it happens, but that's the only one I actually know.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2013 16:58:37
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to Bulerias2005

I heared a tientos done por sigueriya recently on canal sur's flamenco radio....lemme see if I can find it......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2013 17:58:47
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Cultural Flamenco Questions Thread (in reply to mezzo

@4'05min, a tangos' letras encapsulated in a 12 beat format.




@57min, a tientos letras encapsulated also.



_____________________________

"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 18 2013 9:20:19
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