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Ultimately the original question was whether or not someone can learn compas without listening to a player, or having that player show you. The answer is that you can learn compas without actually having to travel to Sevilla, by simply picking up some sheet music or a book explaining those compas. And that "explanation" will most certainly be written out using notation and concepts from music theory.

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If you can put it on sheet music, that's theory.

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But can you learn compas, pratice falsetas, and actually get pretty good at the style? Of course you can.

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If you can put it on sheet music, that's theory.

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ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco

The issue here is that you don't know enough to know how wrong you are.

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ORIGINAL: cookieshoes

You have no idea what my background is

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ORIGINAL: cookieshoes

because it's a pissing match

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Are you serious? You have no idea what my background is.

The only thing indefensible here are comments like yours, where you provide no backup. I've made it more than clear that I know what I'm talking about.

What, should we talk about Schopenhauer's theories on Metaphysics and Music? Atonalities? Music and Cognition? Music and Wellness? Theories on Harmony?

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Question: What is the difference between music notation and music theory? Can you read and write your music without knowing any music theory?

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Come on then friend, respond. Prove where I am wrong.

If you're so confident, it shouldn't take much, should it?

Come on, enlighten me.

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If you can put it on sheet music, that's theory.

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While not at all a prerequisite for learning theory based things like compas (which technically you can learn from books alone - at least the basic understanding/premise) listening to good Flamenco is of course a great benefit and part of the journey.

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That's funny, because if you read my original post, I offered constructive advice on how to get into Flamenco...

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ORIGINAL: cookieshoes

Compas are time signature/rhythm. That is as theory based as key signatures, harmonies, and scales.

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Strictly speaking you might be right but i like to believe compas is a little bit more then just counting beats. Every note and musical phrase has a relation to compas and if you mistreat that relation you play out of compas, even when the time signature/rhythm is correct. You can even play "out of compas" when you play the correct noters on the correct place but without the correct feeling.

I once had to play a very simple compas variation of soleares for Paco Peña. Already on the second note he stopped me claiming it was out of compas. I played it again and again and again and every single time he interrupted me on the first or second note claiming it was "out of compas". How can 1 or 2 opening notes be out of compas??????

Years later when i re-listened the recording my first reaction after hearing 1 or 2 notes was "out of compas". What was wrong with it was that i played the first note(s) out of context... i played it because i was supposed to start the piece so i played the first individual note fallowed by the second and was "out of compas" for no other reason then that i gave those 2 notes the wrong feeling. All i had to do was to look over beat 1 and 2 to beat nr. 3, giving these 2 notes a direction and a relation in stead of being 2 stand alone notes being played on time but "out of compas".

This brings us back to the statement you can learn a language from paper, but without ever HEARING the correct pronouncement the change you speak it correctly is close to zero. Can you read Chinese, Perian and Russian out lout the correct way? Still it written the correct way so what's your problem? You mentioned counting as well like 1+1=2. Still i tend to believe most people have to be introduced to counting by visually adding/subtracting apples or whatever example you use to visualize concepts like adding/subtracting/dividing/multiplying. If you give 10 newbies without any concept of figures or counting a book with dry calculations (1x2=2, 2x2=4 etc) i don't think they will know how to pronounce it, let along use it.

You don't have to go to Spain to learn flamenco but a (local) teacher can make a huge difference and at least you have to hear/see a lot of good examples on record and/or dvd before you can even begin to understand the correct interpretation and sound. My father produced the very best flamenco transcriptions known to me but even he believes monkey see monkey do is the key element in learning flamenco. Still whenever Bach is raped i don't blame the score, i just bless the limited amount of people who are able to translate it to music again.

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ORIGINAL: cookieshoes

Meter and Rhythm are foundational elements of music theory, plain and simple.

You can write out any Compas using sheet music. That is theory.

Were the Compas in Flamenco originally created using theory exercises? Of course they weren't. But that doesn't change the fact that we can learn any compas we want by simply writing it out first, and then playing it by reading the notation. Is it better to listen to a player, when it comes to things like "feel"? Of course. But that is neither here nor there when you're talking about the actual elements of what you're trying to do. The elements are explained with....wait for it....theory.

What is not theory-based are things like Sabicas' particular touch/tone, or the timbre or inflection in the voice of Camaron de la Isla. You can't write those things out, you have no choice but to hear them yourself.

But for things like rhythm and meter, you can tie them back to theory, because that's where those elements fall, whether the original composers or players ever used them that way or thought of them that way.

It's like observing a culture who can speak a language that they taught themselves, and because nobody else knows the language but them, it's their own thing. But that doesn't mean we can't still say that they are using "words" and "sentences" and "syntax". And eventually we can break that language down and learn it, using those core concepts. Those things are as inherent to language, just as music theory is to concepts like rhythm and time signatures, which are what Compas are.

As I said, of course the Flamenco Masters didn't approach it from the classical side of theory. Neither does the average kid learning the electric guitar. Doesn't change that what they are doing is still possible to tie back to theory.