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Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:


Enjoying that thoroughly Tom.


Here's another recording that shows Pedro's Bach abilities.....



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 12:33:18
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Are you suggesting that the cello suites were transcriptions from the lowly lute? Perish the thought. The lute usurped the music!

Ok HAH!

Trapped you in your own game. If you think the Toccata on D minor does not sound like Bach, then why is the Lute suite, which you know so well, chock full of examples of spieces counterpoint that is very much like the D minor work?

Tell me, if Baroque lute is so great why does it take 13 courses of strings to play the same thing the cello can play with four?

I'm pretty certain that the the suites where writen for cello first and them taken by baroque lute, they are not lute pieces. Here's why, it's too difficult to adapt music written for an instrument tuned in forths to adapt to an instrument tuned in fifths.

The suites lay naturally on the cello fingerboard taking advantage of the overtones and open string resonances. They are specific to the way the tuning in fifths works. ( Uness you can figure out something that I left out to trick you. :D])

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 12:34:27
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

Here's another recording that shows Pedro's Bach abilities.....


I love Pedro Bacans playing too, but I like his playing for singers the most. But the solo buleria on his album Alurican is pretty fantastic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 12:37:13
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana

Some Biber for you Stephen.




Notably the model for Rodrigo's Passacaglia. And maybe some other famous pieces ?



D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 12:40:42
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I don't like Justin Biber.

Check your species counterpoint in the toccata against other speices counter point in Bach's violin sonatas and partitas. The character fits.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 12:45:30
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha



It is interesting to note that Vivaldi was rediscovered as a result of some scholars mistaking Bach's arrangement of Vivaldi's violin concerto's for Bach originals. This lead to them reevalutating and elevating the importance of Vivaldi rather than admit they had cloth ears.



D.



Of course in these arrangements Bach beefed up the counterpoint. It was a habit he had.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 12:55:59
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

speices counter point




Is that SPECIOUS or SPECIES Stephen ?

Oops, no .......do I smell SPICES ?????

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 13:07:45
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha

A man who really gets Bach.

Some improv by Ted Greene



D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 13:17:28
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha

(Stephen takes a second, less flamboyant bow, but ah ... the old ailment... out it squeaks, backing away his nostrils flare but the 'grin' stays in place, just.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 13:27:59
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Ok you're trying to catch me in a semantic cravasse; I don't consider the so called lute suite in C minor to be written for lute. It was in the opinion of many, intended to be a cello work.

The register of the work allows the chords to lay on the cello fingerboard in a very specific placement of chords and the first inversions of chords that are playable on the cello. Not all chordal pieces are playable on the cello because of the technical impossibility of double and triple stops that would be playable on fretted instruments tuned in fourths and thirds. Creating a chordal piece on an instrument tuned in forths and thirds is a difficult if not impossible work to transcribe to the four stringed instrument tuned in fifths. And the seating of the piece on the cello register makes it possible for many stopped notes to ring and activate overtones on the cello and also open octave and unison notes. Not to mention the chords are playable, not by accident.

It is thought by many that the cello suites were composed at the organ, or Bach used his viola and changed the register ( also thought by a minority the suites were written for viola) and you can hear this in the long chords which are held and sustained with the bow much as they would be on an organ. It's also evident in the kinds of counterpoint he uses in the suites, the scalar runs and the motifs where he uses scales, that those types of melodic movement have much in common with the Toccata in D Minor. Look at the prelude to the C major Suite and the Courante of the G major suite ( to name a few) for almost direct quotes found in the Toccata. He uses the same exact devices to play with scales and the intent is to try out all the stops on an organ.

As far as the Lute Suite and 5th Cello suite, sure yeah the same right? But not written for the lute, just played on the lute. Cellists don't consider it a lute suite so you caught me with my semantic fly open. But I'll still arm wrestle you to the ground over the authorship of the Tocatta and Fugue in D Minor. It is by Bach.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 13:39:06
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana

I have a very relaxed atmosphere towards certainty.

Whenever ambiguity exists I embrace it.

I remain unconvinced about some of the works attributed to Bach particularly the early keyboard works. Many people are.

The works for Lute are a hodgepodge but a magnificant one. The texure of the opening prelude screams lute Tocatta (to warm up). Am I certain no. I am fairly certain the the Emajor comes from the violin. I need not be completely certain.


D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 13:46:32
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

in the kinds of counterpoint he uses in the suites, the scalar runs and the motifs where he uses scales, that those types of melodic movement have much in common with the Toccata in D Minor.



If you listen to Ted there are loads of moments where he appears to be quoting Bach. But there are actually only a finite amount of motifs which can effectively spell out a given harmonic scheme.

It is important to remember that Bach was the Zenith of this style, not it's originator.
D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 13:50:15
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Jeezus...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 13:51:30
 
Ricardo

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Pedro Bacan is what I like to call the Bach of the flamenco guitar........




I tend to agree his personality and unique style come through loud and clear when accompanying his favorite singers from Lebrija. However this Buleria is like 95% early 70's style PDL influence. Not a bad thing in anyway IMO, but just saying. Perhaps Bach was likewise strongly influenced by some unknown, yet takes all the credit these days?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 16:52:44
 
Miguel de Maria

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha

Vivaldi! Such vivaciousness, I love it! Not that I would necessarily want to listen to his entire works, one by one, after the other... they might tend to run into each other a little bit.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 17:44:51
 
jshelton5040

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Vivaldi! Such vivaciousness, I love it! Not that I would necessarily want to listen to his entire works, one by one, after the other... they might tend to run into each other a little bit.

I was compelled to try to the learn Bach's concerto after Vivaldi in Gm but found with the exception of the second movement it was totally beyond my beginner's abilities. I suspect in JS Bach's time using another composer's theme was considered a compliment rather than plagiarism. One can certainly hear evidence of copying from all the major composers of the time.

Did you know that Handel and Scarlatti had a harpsichord playing contest. The Italian panel couldn't decide who was better so they called it a draw. How I would have loved to hear that!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 18:38:36
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

f you listen to Ted there are loads of moments where he appears to be quoting Bach. But there are actually only a finite amount of motifs which can effectively spell out a given harmonic scheme.

It is important to remember that Bach was the Zenith of this style, not it's originator.


Who is Ted? Ted Nugent?
=================

It's cool to say Bach had teachers and influences, because he did. Clearly every artist does. But I don't buy the Toccata & Fugue in D min. as being by someone else. There could be works by Bach that are not totally by Bach, there maybe works that are attributed to him by other composers, but those cases are probably few a far between.

BWV does not mean 'Bach Was Vivaldi' -

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 19:41:38
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I tend to agree his personality and unique style come through loud and clear when accompanying his favorite singers from Lebrija. However this Buleria is like 95% early 70's style PDL influence. Not a bad thing in anyway IMO, but just saying. Perhaps Bach was likewise strongly influenced by some unknown, yet takes all the credit these days?


Not a bad thing at all to play like Paco in the early 70's. And Pedro does it much better - tastier than the other Paco who plays like The Paco.


It's pretty well known who Bach's teacher was and how he was trained, there's not much to dispute, unless you're given to notions like the Apollo program was faked or that Big foot was little Johann's teacher. He spent a lot of time at the organ being a professional player in church from an early age. Bach on the organ when he was young was like Jimmy Page on Les Paul or the other Jimmy on Strat, respectively. He was a young man full of life and oats who got lots of women pregnant and played the best musical organs as well; and you have to think he was jamming to find out how much those new powerful organs of his day could take. That is why he put together secular jamming pieces that were so outside and crazy.

The 5th cello suite, which I am so loathe to refer to as a lute suite, was written in the French Style. It the style is called Style Brise' or literally 'the broken style'. It meant the chords where articulated to be broken into parts and they sounded a bit disjointed. You can hear really good examples of this style in the works of Vaux Gautier the French baroque lute player /composer. Harpsichordists used this style also. He gave that stylistic flair to the piece on purpose..who knows why, maybe he just felt like it.

My idea is not that Bach was as many people erroneously understand William Shakespeare, a compendium of different authors, but that he was a towering genius who commanded the ability to change music. The same as Paco de Lucia changed flamenco singlehandedly. Or John Coltrane changed jazz. Shakespeare, to me, is the guy who had his iambic pentameter compas down cold and wrote all the sonnets.

Some artists destroy the early work, but not Cezzane. If you look at Cezzane's pictures from his early stages you see a guy who wants to be elegant like Manet, he paints thickly and with lots of gusto, but he's not Manet. Mary Cassatt comes closer to Manet and she is elegant. Her works stays like that the rest of her life and she basically gets better and better at the one Manetish groove. Cezanne goes over to study with Pissaro and Pissaro blows his mind and he's never the same, puts Manet down. He totally changes and goes to a style that is unrecognizable if you were to only see his early work. It's not only that he changes style, he changes the way we see, because he changed the way he saw things.

Cezzane's early work does not give much of an indication which way he would go, it looks like a dead end actually. And for him it was. Listen to Paco de Lucia's early work when he was 16. Does Paco following Nino Ricardo sound like Paco after he digested Sabicas for five years? Perhaps Bach was no different than Cezzane or Paco. When he was young he played differently and had different ideas and real stylistic inconsistencies like an artist would normally have.

Bach also changed his style depending on who his employer was at the time. In his late 20's in Cothen he wrote more freely, more secularly and did a lot of the instrumental solo pieces. His employer was a young count with whom Bach drank, carried on with the ladies and wrote gamba parts for. Bach wrote the gamba parts so the count could play with the chamber orchestra he hired for Bach to write music for. Bach wrote the gamba parts so they were not as difficult and the non professional count could get in the group. Later he worked for a religious boys school and one of the things the 40 year old Herr Bach had to do was get up at 5:30 am every morning and wake up the kids and chase them into choral rehearsal and then breakfast. In those days he was writing his sacred music and sticking to Gods plan. How he must have missed the days in Cothen, the middle of nowhere, drinking and whoring with the count.

Can you imagine the town 20 miles away gets a new powerful organ and they call Bach over to try out. If he was in Cothen, he was probably thinking Ok I don't l have to hold back to keep the count from getting lost in the music, I'm going to rip the pedals off this machine and make it honk like only I can make it honk. Or conversely if he was was baby sitting the school boys that must have been drudgery for a guy with that musical mind. I bet if the next town over called him to try out the organ he was going to go over there and pretend John Bonham was playing drums for him and take it out. He wrote that un-Bach sounding stuff to test organs, but I never said it did not sound like Bach. It sounds like Bach to me, the same way the sonnets of Shakespeare sound like Bill himself.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2013 20:44:19
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana

Having exhausted the potential for formal education Bach refined his skills with close study. He copied out the works of the composers he admired as an efficient way of focusing his mind. When he thought the work worthy and when he wanted to integrate the melodic language into his own style he expanded on the work.

At no point has anyone here suggested that he is not responsible for the innumerable masterpieces of his mature career. Nor was there the suggestion that there was anything at all underhand about his mode of study. He admired Vivaldi and his mode of study was to physically copy and embellish. Likewise Biber.

The fruits of this study are the Brandenburg concerti and the unnacompanied works for strings.

I simply said that I was not convinced that the Tocatta was an original work of his. 'NOT CONVINCED' I neither stated categorically that he was not the composer of the original piece, nor did I deny that he had worked upon it. It does not sound like Bach in much the same way as it doesn't sound like Beethoven. It may be Bach but I am NOT CONVINCED.

It would be very very very difficult to convince me that the Cello suites are not his.



With regards to the virility of genuis I might draw your attention to the dedicatee of the Sonnets.

I consider your assumption that I was talking about Ted Nugent every bit as reasonable as the rest of your assumptions.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2013 1:01:28
 
Miguel de Maria

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to jshelton5040

I would have loved to hear Bach play! But the Scarlatti v Handel duel would have been nice. Speaking os plagiarism, I guess Handel was a bit more liberal than was usually the case.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2013 4:03:38
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

I would have loved to hear Bach play! But the Scarlatti v Handel duel would have been nice. Speaking os plagiarism, I guess Handel was a bit more liberal than was usually the case.


Scarlatti would have wiped the floor with him !!!! At least Domenco would have on the keyboard, don't know so much about Allesandro. They would need a singer as a second and Handel had Farinelli.

When it comes to outright theft for commercial gain it is hard to beat Handel. Mind you Diabelli and Andrew Loyd Webber are probably good candidates.


Thing about Handel though he would steal something (say the Andalucian cadence via Monteverdi) but then he would break it down build it back up and pass it on better.

Some nice sleight of hand here by the Ukulele orchesta shifting between left and right handed long cycle and having the two juxtaposed in canon a bar apart at the end.




And why the hell not, a reminder that there was more to Vivaldi than Concerti (you can BET Handel knew). An aria with my favourite early music soprano. (you might remember it from the film shine where the orchestra were less leaden and Emma with the benefit of youth was as miraculously nimble as a young Ella Fitzgerald).



D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2013 11:35:34
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Fantastic. I didn't know him (Pedro Bacan), thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2013 13:57:10
 
Miguel de Maria

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha

Nice, GB, as a guitar teacher, I think you'll like this. If you haven't seen it before...



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2013 16:18:11
 
guitarbuddha

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Miguel de Maria

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

If you haven't seen it before...




Sorry Miguel but I AM that predictable. I do a good Bob Marley U2 Bob Geldof Oasis Bob Dylan mash up at parties.

Sometimes afterwards only one person hits me.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2013 16:35:26
 
jshelton5040

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I tend to agree his personality and unique style come through loud and clear when accompanying his favorite singers from Lebrija. However this Buleria is like 95% early 70's style PDL influence.


I wish he had been playing like that at the performance I went to. It was so boring that I left at intermission along with majority of the other patrons. I was told by some people who knew him that he was heavily involved with alcohol at the time so perhaps that was the reason for the uninspired playing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2013 18:07:06
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha

quote:

I simply said that I was not convinced that the Tocatta was an original work of his. 'NOT CONVINCED' I neither stated categorically that he was not the composer of the original piece, nor did I deny that he had worked upon it. It does not sound like Bach in much the same way as it doesn't sound like Beethoven. It may be Bach but I am NOT CONVINCED.


But you dodged and wove when confronted with my questions, now you're testy? Being 'not convinced' is kind of luke warm. But you tried to pin me down to not understanding the 5th cello suite, but when I said why I think it is not a lute suite you just drop the conversation.

You tried to catch me up in the 5th cello suite, so I played your game and said you caught me red handed. I admitted so much. I did give you back a riddle of my own which you either did not see or did not want to take up. The clue that the cello suite could have been either for lute or cello is the fact that in the Anna Magdalena manuscript the cello is directed to do a 'scordatura' a special tuning of the A string one step down to make it a forth instead of a fifth. This would indicate there's an argument for the 5th suite having first been a lute piece.

You said something provocative, the toccata may not be Bach's, then tried to catch me in a nomenclature issue, the 5th cello suite score the same as the Lute suite, and when answered you get huffy? C'mon. We've both listened to, and read a lot about Bach and simply come to different personal conclusions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2013 2:40:57
 
estebanana

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

When I went looking for a studio to work on guitars here in Akune I looked at the abandoned house next to us. It was too dilapidated and had bad energy. There were sad old Japanese dolls left to moulder, the tatami was deeply grooved, holes were poked in the paper panels of the sliding doors. It would have been a lot of love to clean it up and work on it. Someday I might buy it, it would cost about 15,000 dollars to buy the land it sits on, the house is a tear down. But there was something sad about it that backed me off.

Two blocks from where I live there's a coffee shop called 'Harmonicon', it's owned by a funny lady named Matsumoto, I call her Matsumotosan. Her family was in the mineral business until her husband died. When Mr. Matsumoto passed on she decided to sell the business and open a cafe and also give cooking lessons. She also lives in a former country inn which she restored little by little over the years. She gave me a tour one day, it's gorgeous inside. A traditional Japanese inn.


On the back end of her property there is a modern steel framed warehouse that her family used to store the mineral stocks that they sold. I asked her when her family dealt in. She said they were salt merchants and that this warehouse at one time full of thousands of bags of salt. Then she showed me the room upstairs on the second floor, I said I would rent it. Matsumotosan and I have been good buddies ever since. She is a true supporter of those who want to do a traditional art or craft. She gave me a good deal, a really, really good deal.

I moved in and began building, over the next couple of weeks I realized how lucky I am to have such a great place to work. It's so peaceful, and even though this town can be boring, I'm happy to be bored and sequestered here rather than fearing for my life in a gun toting 'hood in West Oakland. I realized then that the universe was telling me something by setting me up in a former salt storage house. I had teased Tom and been mean to him for talking about his salt finger brace technique, which I think he himself takes with a grain of salt. It was coincidence to have landed in this salt warehouse, but I'm paying attention the content of the coincidence. It made me realize I needed to re-evaluate the way I was teasing Old Salty Finger's. He does not mind me calling him that.

It has nothing to do with anything fishy or under the table. I wish him well with his work. I am not worried at all about this type of more large scale work he has undertaken being inappropriate subject matter for the Foro. We've gone very far afield with the off topic posting in Tom's thread. I 'm a main offender, guilty sorry about that. But now I hope my salty warehouse story turns the thread back over to Tom's continuation of his narrative about his new project.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2013 3:16:18
 
Tom Blackshear

 

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I realized then that the universe was telling me something by setting me up in a former salt storage house. I had teased Tom and been mean to him for talking about his salt finger brace technique, which I think he himself takes with a grain of salt. It was coincidence to have landed in this salt warehouse, but I'm paying attention the content of the coincidence. It made me realize I needed to re-evaluate the way I was teasing Old Salty Finger's. He does not mind me calling him that.

It has nothing to do with anything fishy or under the table. I wish him well with his work. I am not worried at all about this type of more large scale work he has undertaken being inappropriate subject matter for the Foro. We've gone very far afield with the off topic posting in Tom's thread. I 'm a main offender, guilty sorry about that. But now I hope my salty warehouse story turns the thread back over to Tom's continuation of his narrative about his new project.


Good story Stephen and I don't hold offense with anything said here, life is too short. But I feel responsible for challenging people to be the best they can be... with any potential contribution to new ways of doing things, even if they are really old ways that have been lost in Antiquity.

And this invitation for me to help a factory owner to try the system out is not about me getting rich but about sharing techniques that can add validity to general working conditions that raise the level of the art for all builders. But I realize that although man does not live by bread alone, we all have to make a living :-)

Be well....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2013 3:43:48
 
Ruphus

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Stephen,

I asked that before and forgot the answer:
How is living with paper walls?
Regarding privacy and weather conditions?
-

Congratulations for the place to work in!
I consider the atmosphere of a shop very important for producer and product.
You want to be well where you spend a lot of important time.

More valuable even the attitude of the old lady. The world´s relict of heartiness and nobless.
Tell her folks out there who heard about her ways from you do admire her style, sending best wishes.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2013 10:19:58
 
estebanana

Posts: 9315
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear

We live in a house with a modern steel frame, plastic siding and a small bathroom. It's not very traditional in the sense that you think about paper walls and shoji. My shop is about the same, but we do visit and stay with people who live in old traditional houses, which in many ways I prefer. Japan is a world of contradictions of new and old in culture and architecture, but it seems to work out somehow.

I'm going to write about my trip to Minamata this week, I'll talk about the things you asked about. Meanwhile perhaps we should not get to out there again on this thread.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 20 2013 13:28:48
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