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This is why I dont want to travel to Paracho
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3437
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to Ricardo)
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This is a young Dutch guy we met in Patzcuaro, a few miles from Uruapan. We were sitting in the outdoor part of a restaurant on the main square for the mid day meal. He was at the next table. We struck up a conversation, invited him to sit with us. As usual, Larisa broke the ice, and soon had him talking.
The next day I was feeling poorly. He and Larisa went on a tour around the lake. She reported he was friendly, respectful, intelligent, they had a good time.
He was doing everything right. He dressed unobtrusively, stayed at inexpensive lodgings and traveled on public transportation.
A couple of months later we had an email from his parents in Holland. His body had been found in southern Mexico. His passport was on his body, but no money. At first the Mexican police reported that there were drugs in his body, then it transpired that there had been no tests.
The parents were frustrated by the lack of information and constantly changing story from the cops. I gave them an intro to some well connected people in Mexico City, but nothing ever came of it.
I have travelled many, many times by myself in Mexico since I was 17 years old, 58 years ago. I never heard stories like this until the last few years.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 29 2013 16:37:24
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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My family's roots go deep into Mexico. My grandfather was superintendent of the Santa Fe railway in Northern Mexico during the revolution beginning in 1910. I have his photos of the revolution, from armored trains with troops to corpses hanging from telegraph poles. I, myself, have traveled to and within Mexico from the time I was 18. That was 52 years ago. I have traveled by train, plane, car, often to Mazatlan and the Pacific coast, but elsewhere along the Sea of Cortez to places such as Puerto Penasco. I now would travel by plane to well-traveled destinations, and I might travel by train to some spots. But I surely would not travel by auto anywhere in Mexico.
Mexico has not changed that much in terms of official transactions. It was always, and still is, corrupt to the core. From the highest officials to the petty clerks, everyone gets "la Mordida" (the bite) (backsheesh, bribes) if anything is to get done. The Federales are among the most corrupt, the army less so. The only thing that has changed is the rise of the narcotrafficantes. They are the reason for the extreme rise in gruesome murders. The Federales are useless because they are as corrupt as the narcotrafficantes. The army is the only force that has shown some "cojones" in this fight.
In my opinion, the problem is not the Mexican drug growers and producers. In certain respects it is not even the narcotrafficantes. The problem, my friends, lies right here in the United States with our demand for drugs. It is demand that fuels production, not the other way around. We have met the enemy, and it is us. Problem is, we want to blame everyone else: Mexico, Colombia, Afghanistan. We don't want to face up to the fact that we are the primary cause of the drug trade with our insatiable demand.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 29 2013 17:49:58
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3437
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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The "corruption" in Mexico has been the normal order of business throughout my lifetime, and according to stories I have heard, it was during the lifetimes of my father and grandfather. As far as I know, it has been the normal order of business all the way back to colonial times, when it was the order of business in Spain as well.
Being a firmly embedded element of culture, it seemed to me not to be a serious impediment. Its added cost was probably offset by tax evasion, etc.
In 1961 two friends and I spent the summer camping out in Mexico. Out in the country we went well armed. This was normal in those days. No one took offense. It probably saved us some trouble on one or two occasions.
When we planned to spend six weeks in the jungle in Yucatan and Quintana Roo, we visited the U.S. Consul in Merida. He was in his mid to late 30s, a Kennedy "New Frontier" appointee. After a half hour of discussion, he seemed to conclude that we knew what we were doing, and relaxed a bit.
In fact, he relaxed enough to tell us a sad story, and to ask my advice.
They entered Mexico by car at Nuevo Laredo, he, his wife and young children and his Spanish mother-in-law. His diplomatic passport had been sent to the Foreign Ministry in Mexico City. At the time, Mexico did not recognize the Franco government of Spain. Mexican Immigration refused entry for his mother-in-law. Upon presentation, they also seized the passports of his wife and children.
Attempting to return to the USA, they were refused entry, because they had no passports. Stuck on the bridge, they finally realized that their only recourse was to bribe the Mexicans. They probably would have paid a lot less if they had proposed to pay right away without causing trouble, and in the process revealing they could probably afford a nice sum.
They went on to Mexico City. collected his diplomatic passport, and made the drive to Merida, something of an adventure in those days. Promptly upon setting up shop in Merida, the Consul was visited by the head of Immigration for the State of Yucatan. Woefully, he explained to me, he was beng shaken down monthly over the status of his mother-in-law. It wasn'nt a totally unaffordable sum, but it was enough to sting. And he seemed to think it was not in keeping with the dignity of his post. Did I have a suggestion?
My suggestion was that he invite the immigration guy in for a cup of coffee when he came, have his secretary give him the money in an envelope as he departed, and send him a little present at Christmas time.
This was seen as corruption by the Consul, seen by me as the normal course of business to deal with a potentially difficult problem.
What is new to me in the last ten years or so is the greatly increased level of violence against foreigners, and the savagely depraved barbarity of the criminal element. Mexican outlaws used to be lot classier. I think the Colombian narcotraficantes have been a bad influence. Nothing against civilized Colombians, of course.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 30 2013 0:08:28
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
Woefully, he explained to me, he was beng shaken down monthly over the status of his mother-in-law. It wasn'nt a totally unaffordable sum, but it was enough to sting. And he seemed to think it was not in keeping with the dignity of his post. Did I have a suggestion?
Having myself spent a career as a US diplomat, I can only conclude that the American Consul in Merida who spoke to you must have been incredibly naive and uninformed. I can assure you that all he would have had to do was inform our Ambassador in Mexico City and the US Department of State of the attempt by the Yucatan immigration chief to shake him down for "la Mordida." The Ambassador would have taken the issue up with the Foreign Ministry in Mexico City, and the Yucatan immigration official would have been forced to back off by his own government. Foreign governments are acutely aware of reciprocity, and they generally observe diplomatic protocol, as they expect reciprocal treatment by Washington. I cannot believe the American Consul was so dense that he had not brought the issue up with our Embassy in Mexico City. I have seen similar attempts to extract bribes, especially regarding duty-free importation of effects by diplomats, and they are easily resolved by involving high level host government officials by the Embassy. If the American Consul's experience, as related by you, is any indication, I doubt that he had an illustrious career in the Foreign Service.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 30 2013 0:44:32
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3437
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
Woefully, he explained to me, he was beng shaken down monthly over the status of his mother-in-law. It wasn'nt a totally unaffordable sum, but it was enough to sting. And he seemed to think it was not in keeping with the dignity of his post. Did I have a suggestion?
Having myself spent a career as a US diplomat, I can only conclude that the American Consul in Merida who spoke to you must have been incredibly naive and uninformed. .
The Consul didn't strike me as exactly, shall we say, a man of the world.
I had (still have) no experience of the world of diplomacy. Stiil, the Yucatecan Immigration guy did have on his side of the scales the PRI's (the party that unilaterally ruled Mexico for 73 years) vehement opposition to the Franco regime. Could he not have parlayed this into the deportation of the Spanish mother-in-law, who entered the country illegally in the first place? Could the U.S. Ambassador have prevented the deportation of an illegal alien? If he could have, how would this have played out in Merida? How would the people the Consul dealt with every day have reacted to a guy whose illegal mother-in-law was kept in the country by a Yanqui power play?
Perhaps the Consul could have been seen as a generous husband, keeping his mother-in-law in the country to please his wfe. I have to admit, an alternate interpretaion occurred to me, and I was careful to keep a straight face. Maybe the Mexicans would have thought he was pussy-whipped, and as a result exploited by the Immigration guy. Probably some Mexicans looked at it one way, some looked at it the other.
Maybe the Immigration guy was screwing the Consul. But maybe he was just handling a problem by his own discretion, in a way honored by centuries of custom. After all, the Immigration guy wasn't paid a decent wage. He had to make enough money somehow to keep his family in decent circumstances, and he had to pay his boss to keep his job. Irregularities in immigration status put bread into the mouths of his children. Maybe it never occurred to the Immigration guy that the money was coming out of the Consul's own pocket. Surely in a budget for a fancy office, a spiffy staff, electric typewriters, heavyweight stationery and all that stuff, there was a little slack for incidental expenses?
In any case, it looked to me like the Immigration guy had the Consul by the short hairs. The mother-in-law was illegal, no matter how you sliced it. The Consul had bribed her way into Mexico. She never would be legal in Mexico as long as she was a Spanish citizen, and she refused to quit being one. Might as well man up and pay like a gentleman. You paid the night watchman, or the burglars would get into your house. You gave the traffic cop his Christmas present, or your chauffeur woud get arrested on his way to pick you up. You bought the maid's daughter's school uniforms, because the maid couldn't afford them on what you paid her...a gentleman was expected to fulfill his obligations. If he took on an illegal mother-in-law of his own accord....
My advice, meditated upon for no more than 15 seconds, came from life long exposure to Mexican customs as a member of a Border family, and a total of three years' experience doing business in Mexico for my grandfather, starting at age 21.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 30 2013 3:59:51
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
My advice, meditated upon for no more than 15 seconds, came from life long exposure to Mexican customs as a member of a Border family, and a total of three years' experience doing business in Mexico for my grandfather, starting at age 21.
There was certainly nothing wrong with your advice, Richard. It was the Consul who made all the wrong moves, first by entering Mexico without his diplomatic passport (He's on a diplomatic assignment and he enters the country to which he's assigned without his diplomatic passport! What was it doing in Mexico City?!), second by bringing his mother-in-law into Mexico illegally, and third by not rectifying the situation via our Embassy in Mexico City. I don't think the Mexican Government would have denied the Spanish mother-in-law of a US diplomat entry, had it been done correctly. My first thought is, how did this character ever gain entry into the US Foreign Service? My second thought is, Merida may have been his first and only assignment, after which (one hopes) he was selected out of the Service.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 30 2013 10:13:00
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3464
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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In discussing the traditional (and continuing) high level of corruption in Mexico, and the extreme danger of traveling in much of Mexico due to the viciousness of the narcotrafficantes, I mentioned in a previous post above, that the Mexican army has shown "cojones" in the fight against the drug cartels, and that the army has gained the respect of many observers. This is in stark contrast to the Federales, who are as corrupt as the cartels and are hopeless in the fight.
I would like to pay homage to another group of professionals in Mexico who have shown "cojones" as well. I am referring to a certain group of journalists who have demonstrated real courage in unmasking both the drug cartels and the official corruption that often supports them. Traditionally, Mexican journalists have been as corrupt as the Federales and other government officials. They were journalists in name only, being paid by the PRI or some other faction to write glowing stories (or to write derogatory stories about the opposition). But in the last ten to fifteen years, a select group of journalists has demonstrated real integrity and courage, and many have paid with their lives, being assassinated by cartel hit-men. these journalists are true heroes.
And I reiterate, the Mexican producers of drugs, and even the narcotraficantes and drug cartels, are not the main problem in either the United States or Mexico. The main problem is our insatiable demand for drugs. Those who use drugs in the United States and create the demand should go to bed at night reflecting on their complicity in the thousands of deaths in Mexico that result from that demand.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 30 2013 12:08:54
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FredGuitarraOle
Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal
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RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
In my opinion, the problem is not the Mexican drug growers and producers. In certain respects it is not even the narcotrafficantes. The problem, my friends, lies right here in the United States with our demand for drugs. It is demand that fuels production, not the other way around. We have met the enemy, and it is us. Problem is, we want to blame everyone else: Mexico, Colombia, Afghanistan. We don't want to face up to the fact that we are the primary cause of the drug trade with our insatiable demand.
quote:
And I reiterate, the Mexican producers of drugs, and even the narcotraficantes and drug cartels, are not the main problem in either the United States or Mexico. The main problem is our insatiable demand for drugs. Those who use drugs in the United States and create the demand should go to bed at night reflecting on their complicity in the thousands of deaths in Mexico that result from that demand.
Right on.
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Date Mar. 30 2013 16:23:16
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Ricardo
Posts: 15140
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: This is why I dont want to trave... (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
In my opinion, the problem is not the Mexican drug growers and producers. In certain respects it is not even the narcotrafficantes. The problem, my friends, lies right here in the United States with our demand for drugs.
I am with you bill on most social and eco and governmental and historic points... but this idea is totally twisted. Americans, especially young people are preyed upon by dealers and the "demand" is created by THEM. Don't make it sound like yet again greedy glutenous Americans are the root of all evil. Organized thugs are gonna be around regardless what they peddle or do to rise from the gutter and try to feel empowered. Just so happens this drugs business is easy for them because it's cheap and safe (grows in South America etc) and young people can get hooked so damn easy. Just say no....trace it backwards and you end up in colombia. Maybe even Bolivia if you talking cocaine. "No you can't have our coca, it's important to us and you have bad intentions for it's use " simple as that if you looking for the root of the problem. But thugs will be thugs period. Which brings me to this:
quote:
Bill, I don't have knowledge of this issue, but if the illegal drugs were made legal with a stroke of the pen, would the criminal activity and strife continue?
Well think of it this way...did legalizing alcohol dismantle organized crime rings? No, of course it shakes things up, but as I said, thugs will be thugs it's that simple, and no need to point fingers at the wrong things.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 30 2013 16:34:55
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