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RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco?
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: When is something flamenco and w... (in reply to timoteo)
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THis topic AGAIN???
It is simple a spectrum...and as new knowledge is acquired, our personal place in the spectrum might change. For example extreme right end of the spectrum we have agujetas....why? Because he thinks HE HIMSELF is the ONLY thing flamenco left on this earth. Even guys like camaron or mairena were not singing flamenco properly in his opinion. He stated now paquera and chocolate were gone he is all that is left. eVen his own family try in vain he said. I don't think there would be any person that (regardless if you like him or not) would ever say agujeta is NOT flamenco.
Ok, so that is extreme right. extreme left we have ottmar. I say that because he actually DID play a buleria once. Now place your self in the middle there and decide where you stand. As time goes on you may stick to your spot or it might slide around a bit depending on your newly acquired understands and taste. As far as singing goes I have leaned more right over the years.
The three forms decidedly flamenco interpreted at a reasonably acceptable level are siguiryas solea/buleria and cantiñas. IF you only do one of those 3 (I stuck buleria and solea together as they are sort of related) at an acceptable skill level, hardly anyone will say you are NOT flamenco. The other 3 forms that can exist outside of what is considered flamenco are Fandango, Rumba, and Sevillanas. IF you interpret only one of these or all 3 at high level, there is good chance you will not be considered flamenco.
In rito y geografia they make a point about this with the episode about Pali. A masterful singer of sevillanas and fandangos and calls his own singing "cante"....but honestly nobody else would call it cante. Likewise I have heard interpreters of rumba and fandangos that call their music "flamenco" but they have no clue about solea. I have only heard "CANTAORES" interpret the other 3 forms I mentioned above....cantinas solea siguiriyas. Bad versions don't count. Likewise with guitar players...if you play those 3 forms you ARE a flamenco guitarist.
An iffy form to look at is something like tientos/tangos. I have heard NON flamencos interpret these forms not too badly. Also cantes levantes can be iffy. I have heard great versions of malagueñas etc from singers that don't really know solea.
Again this is just ME AND WHERE I PERSONALLY have drawn my line over the years. Others, depending on both what they KNOW about this stuff and what they have taste for, may consider things differently. For example, a bad siguiriyas is "NOT flamenco" to them, to me it is just bad flamenco, but flamenco just the same.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 9 2013 20:46:17
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: When is something flamenco and w... (in reply to flyhere)
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quote:
Come to think of it, why do the purists frown upon the Rumba? then is the term Rumba Flamenca not totally correct?
I would like to start a Rumba thread within so long, but one thread a time. I like thetherm Rumba flamenca because it clearly seperates from other rumbas. (but then, what is Rumba flamenca?)
Remember that the Rumbas you hear in Spain are 99% NOT rumba flamenca. Even here in Andalucia, flamenco is a very small artform and people dont think flamenco when you say Rumba. They think everything else.
La Farruca is less complicated. You basically dont hear other farrucas the Farruca flamenca.
There´s a term called aflamencado and its exactly about forms like Rumbas which have been made flamenco by flamenco musicians.
I personally prefer a rumba gitana with unisone singing in the chorus. That rocks a lot, but even though it may sound very flamenco in many persons ears, its NOT considered to be flamenco here in Andalucia. Not even by those who play it and that maybe play flamenco as well. And since flamenco is an andalusian artform, I think we should respect their definitions and not make our own.
The problem outside Andalucia and especially on this foro, is that its not our culture, so we tend to put to many things into a box called flamenco. People here dont have these problems because its their culture and they know pretty well what is and what is not one or another thing.
Deniz, I love that drawing.
Ricardo, yes this has been up many times, but its still an important theme and remember that there are always a lot of new members hanging out. I like your definition, but your headline made me think that you replied without wanting to...
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jan. 10 2013 8:02:55
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Ricardo
Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: When is something flamenco and w... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
Ricardo, yes this has been up many times, but its still an important theme and remember that there are always a lot of new members hanging out. I like your definition, but your headline made me think that you replied without wanting to...
Well, someone earlier cut and paste from an old thread, and my feelings also then as now are more or less the same. As I stated in specific examples of cante I admit I have moved a bit to the right on the "puro" spectrum since 2005, but my original thoughts are the same. THere was also a thread that I didn't feel like searching for where specifically Rumba and sevillanas were discussed and even Estella agreed that every flamenco considered rumba to be flamenco but sevillanas NOT. Spanish pop in 4/4 is not rumba to me, it is a more specific groove that defines it....I don't care what country you are from if you can't distinguish proper rumba you probably can't play it either. Like wise any music in 6/8 is not necessarily buleria (if you get my meaning).
To add, the more I have investigated cante and dove deeper into this culture and art form, the more I notice VERY funny mistakes made by spaniards themselves. I say this cuz you imply that spaniards (like every single one) know how to distinguish better than foreigner in all cases. I have seen pro singer GITANOS confuse malagueña for granaina, call buleria de jerez that goes major a "buleria de cadiz" or "una alegria", confuse a taranta guitar solo for a Rondeña (because they don't play guitar), mess up standard lyrics ( belive it or not Curro FRIJOLES!!!!!  ) argue about Romera vs Alegria vs Cantiña.... and tons of other funny examples. In general aficionados that turn from Rumba don't know how to distinguish either a good rumba from a bad one, and every pop song is called rumba these days if the person is spanish singing it.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 10 2013 13:05:54
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