RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Full Version)

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timoteo -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 19:23:02)

quote:

Anything done by flamenco musicians is flamenco

quote:

For example when does the blues stop being the blues?

When Carlos Montoya plays it. Then it becomes Flamenco. Wait ... now I'm confused ... [:-]

</troll>



mezzo -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 19:25:19)

quote:

This guy irritates me, is that not a very flamenco comment?

depends, if you say it with compas it's ok i guess.



Leñador -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 19:35:45)

quote:

depends, if you say it with compas it's ok i guess.


6 syllables, I said it in compas of Fandangos[:D]



gounaro -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 19:36:18)

quote:

Gounaro, I cant hear the Amigo single. Your link lead nowhere and the link in the other thread says that people in my country (Spain) are not allowed to hear it.

Anders, maybe from here:

http://www.sonymusic.es/news/vicente-amigo-lanza-roma-el-primer-single-de-su-nuevo-%C3%A1lbum-tierra-que-se-presentar%C3%A1-en-el-fest



flyhere -> [Deleted] (Jan. 9 2013 19:45:15)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:07:16



XXX -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 19:49:46)

To answer the second part of the question:


quote:

Come to think of it, why do the purists frown upon the Rumba?


I think because it has gotten a lot of recognition while being a less profound palo than others (in their view, although i think they are partly correct in that. The Rumbas that are most popular are like that).

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Ricardo -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 20:46:17)

THis topic AGAIN???

It is simple a spectrum...and as new knowledge is acquired, our personal place in the spectrum might change. For example extreme right end of the spectrum we have agujetas....why? Because he thinks HE HIMSELF is the ONLY thing flamenco left on this earth. Even guys like camaron or mairena were not singing flamenco properly in his opinion. He stated now paquera and chocolate were gone he is all that is left. eVen his own family try in vain he said. I don't think there would be any person that (regardless if you like him or not) would ever say agujeta is NOT flamenco.

Ok, so that is extreme right. extreme left we have ottmar. I say that because he actually DID play a buleria once. Now place your self in the middle there and decide where you stand. As time goes on you may stick to your spot or it might slide around a bit depending on your newly acquired understands and taste. As far as singing goes I have leaned more right over the years.

The three forms decidedly flamenco interpreted at a reasonably acceptable level are siguiryas solea/buleria and cantiñas. IF you only do one of those 3 (I stuck buleria and solea together as they are sort of related) at an acceptable skill level, hardly anyone will say you are NOT flamenco. The other 3 forms that can exist outside of what is considered flamenco are Fandango, Rumba, and Sevillanas. IF you interpret only one of these or all 3 at high level, there is good chance you will not be considered flamenco.

In rito y geografia they make a point about this with the episode about Pali. A masterful singer of sevillanas and fandangos and calls his own singing "cante"....but honestly nobody else would call it cante. Likewise I have heard interpreters of rumba and fandangos that call their music "flamenco" but they have no clue about solea. I have only heard "CANTAORES" interpret the other 3 forms I mentioned above....cantinas solea siguiriyas. Bad versions don't count. Likewise with guitar players...if you play those 3 forms you ARE a flamenco guitarist.

An iffy form to look at is something like tientos/tangos. I have heard NON flamencos interpret these forms not too badly. Also cantes levantes can be iffy. I have heard great versions of malagueñas etc from singers that don't really know solea.

Again this is just ME AND WHERE I PERSONALLY have drawn my line over the years. Others, depending on both what they KNOW about this stuff and what they have taste for, may consider things differently. For example, a bad siguiriyas is "NOT flamenco" to them, to me it is just bad flamenco, but flamenco just the same.



flyhere -> [Deleted] (Jan. 10 2013 3:40:55)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:08:13



Anders Eliasson -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 7:51:12)

quote:

quote:

Gounaro, I cant hear the Amigo single. Your link lead nowhere and the link in the other thread says that people in my country (Spain) are not allowed to hear it.


Anders, maybe from here:


Spyros.
To me, it has absolutely nothing to do with flamenco. Its much more celtic than flamenco. Maybe I should call Vicente and ask him if he would like to Jam some jigs and reels.
If you have a very "open" mind, you could call it a 6/8 bulerias, but the melodic context and everything else has nothing to do with flamenco.

Its sweet though and I expect to hear it next time I enter an elevator.[:D]



Anders Eliasson -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 8:02:55)

quote:

Come to think of it, why do the purists frown upon the Rumba? then is the term Rumba Flamenca not totally correct?


I would like to start a Rumba thread within so long, but one thread a time. I like thetherm Rumba flamenca because it clearly seperates from other rumbas. (but then, what is Rumba flamenca?)
Remember that the Rumbas you hear in Spain are 99% NOT rumba flamenca. Even here in Andalucia, flamenco is a very small artform and people dont think flamenco when you say Rumba. They think everything else.

La Farruca is less complicated. You basically dont hear other farrucas the Farruca flamenca.
There´s a term called aflamencado and its exactly about forms like Rumbas which have been made flamenco by flamenco musicians.

I personally prefer a rumba gitana with unisone singing in the chorus. That rocks a lot, but even though it may sound very flamenco in many persons ears, its NOT considered to be flamenco here in Andalucia. Not even by those who play it and that maybe play flamenco as well. And since flamenco is an andalusian artform, I think we should respect their definitions and not make our own.

The problem outside Andalucia and especially on this foro, is that its not our culture, so we tend to put to many things into a box called flamenco. People here dont have these problems because its their culture and they know pretty well what is and what is not one or another thing.

Deniz, I love that drawing.

Ricardo, yes this has been up many times, but its still an important theme and remember that there are always a lot of new members hanging out. I like your definition, but your headline made me think that you replied without wanting to...



Ricardo -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 13:05:54)

quote:

Ricardo, yes this has been up many times, but its still an important theme and remember that there are always a lot of new members hanging out. I like your definition, but your headline made me think that you replied without wanting to...


Well, someone earlier cut and paste from an old thread, and my feelings also then as now are more or less the same. As I stated in specific examples of cante I admit I have moved a bit to the right on the "puro" spectrum since 2005, but my original thoughts are the same. THere was also a thread that I didn't feel like searching for where specifically Rumba and sevillanas were discussed and even Estella agreed that every flamenco considered rumba to be flamenco but sevillanas NOT. Spanish pop in 4/4 is not rumba to me, it is a more specific groove that defines it....I don't care what country you are from if you can't distinguish proper rumba you probably can't play it either. Like wise any music in 6/8 is not necessarily buleria (if you get my meaning).

To add, the more I have investigated cante and dove deeper into this culture and art form, the more I notice VERY funny mistakes made by spaniards themselves. I say this cuz you imply that spaniards (like every single one) know how to distinguish better than foreigner in all cases. I have seen pro singer GITANOS confuse malagueña for granaina, call buleria de jerez that goes major a "buleria de cadiz" or "una alegria", confuse a taranta guitar solo for a Rondeña (because they don't play guitar), mess up standard lyrics ( belive it or not Curro FRIJOLES!!!!![:D]) argue about Romera vs Alegria vs Cantiña.... and tons of other funny examples. In general aficionados that turn from Rumba don't know how to distinguish either a good rumba from a bad one, and every pop song is called rumba these days if the person is spanish singing it.

Ricardo



Anders Eliasson -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 15:42:55)

I think we need a new rumba thread because there are many examples and variations of Rumba here and I find it difficult to se what is what. And here you directly consider things that are called rumba not to be so.....You call it Spanish pop. But what if the Spanish call it rumaba???? Do you consider the Rumba Gitana from "Vengo" that I uploaded in the Cepero thread to be Flamenco or is something else?

I agree that many Spaniards confuse many things and 90% or more of Spaniards know close to nothing about flamenco. It doesnt interest them at all. My sources are just amateur (and a few pro) flamenco singers and players from around which whom I´ve talked over the years and the huge majority only consider Rumbas in the style of 'entre dos aguas' to be flamenco and the rest not to be flamenco... And in the end its their culture and not ours.

And just for fun, are your sure that you can distinguish a Malagueña from a Granaina por arriba.. I know you can if you know the letra, but if you dont know it...



Leñador -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 15:46:03)

quote:

I think we need a new rumba thread

That'd be cool, I don't think I ever gave rumba a fair chance.



Ricardo -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 16:51:53)

quote:

Do you consider the Rumba Gitana from "Vengo" that I uploaded in the Cepero thread to be Flamenco or is something else?


Of course I consider it flamenco. Look, I understand if you are in andalucia and your gang calls everything rumba that's in 4/4. But if you were in a crowd of RUMBEROS they would hear some pop tunes and simply say that it's NOT rumba. Pretty simple.

Look, Rumba is not Andalusian anyway, I understand it to originate in Catalan region. THe reason it's "flamenco" is because the same reason music like Jaleo (buleria) and tango extremeños are. Those gitanos some how have andaluz family connection and evolved their own style although they are not from the golden triangle or where ever. To say jaleos or tangos from extremeños are not flamenco forms only because they are from outside of andalucia is silly. The problem with rumba is you will infact find groups that only interpret rumba and no other flamenco song. Further, it lends itself to normal 4/4 song structures, regardless if it is treated like cante in the sense of improvised letras with guitar following vocal lead. THen you can mix the feeling with tangos to have a truly vague concept of what is really making the difference. A song with a buleria compas behind is still a song and not considered cante. And then you have beautiful things like Fandango por solea where a singer might not even KNOW solea and it doesn't matter it's just the compas base the guitar plays and singer sings freely over top. Many aficionados don't think of it as flamenco unless the singer is truly a cantaor, and that's fine as well.

Some will argue that the gitanos catalanes are NOT flamencos and therefore their rumbas are not either. We are now splitting hairs about it. But all those Niña Pastori pop songs are not rumba to me and other rumberos. Anyone could interpret them that way, as easily as we can take any cante and stick over top any compas. It is then a taste issue, that's all.

About ME telling the difference of malagueña vs granaina of a letra I never heard before...well, I am kind of into that thing so of course I can.

Ricardo



edguerin -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 17:12:53)

@guitarbuddha: I always thought you aimed slightly ahead of center in a moving target [8|]

For me there are two aspects to the question of when something is flamenco or not.
The first is my subjective perception of a piece. Flamenco then, is what I feel is flamenco.
(So the variation of the Flamenco is what Flamencos play would be Flamenco is what this aficionado feels is flamenco). As soon as one tries to widen the definition to multiple aficionados you're in trouble again...

The other aspect is the - in my opinion vain - attempt at an "objective" definition. Flamenco like all living music constantly evolves, and sometimes goes up blind alleys. Just try to apply definitions of flamenco from the 70ies to what you get to hear from PdL or Tomatito today (e.g. flamenco on a mouth-organ)....



Wannabee -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 17:48:21)

I thought that Sevillana was a folk dance from the area of Seville or round abouts.

I was told it pre-dates flamenco by a few centuries and therefore even if it

is played by a lot of flamencos, it is not true flamenco.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 17:51:00)

Ricardo
We have to do that rumba thread. Its going to be fun. I´ll something that Andalucians consider rumba but not flamenco. My own opinion doesnt really count since I´m to confused.

This with the Malagueña/Granaina:
I asked if you could differ between a Malagueña and a Granaina sung deeper than B phrygian and therefor played por arriba... (In E phrygian)



Ricardo -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 10 2013 20:12:04)

quote:

I asked if you could differ between a Malagueña and a Granaina sung deeper than B phrygian and therefor played por arriba... (In E phrygian)


I am familiar with several letras but it's about the melody so in that sense I don't need a guitar involved at all to tell the difference. There is some mixing and borrowing with all the levante songs and so I need to hear the entire thing not just a part of it. The true question is who would be the one giving the challenge because my point all along is what clearly is a granaina to me, there will be a couple of actual SINGERS calling it malagueña anyway. A while back there was one specific letra under debate that Morente said (as a joke to aficionados implying it doesn't really matter how you label it) was "malagueña en tonos de granaina". [:D]



mark indigo -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 12 2013 22:31:16)

quote:

When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco?


definition of what is flamenco is: anything offered for sale in flamenco-world shop[;)]

(i say "offered" because i don't think they actually have anything for sale, just a flashy website to take your money...[&:])



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