When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Full Version)

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Anders Eliasson -> When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 12:41:21)

I´m just curious.

In another thread that is now going in another direction, there´s been some talking about what is and what is not flamenco.

So I would like to know what other members think about that. I think its a very complicated theme. F.x. Why is Tangos considered flamenco and Sevillanas not? To most not deeply involved in flamenco, it all sounds the same.
In all kinds of ethnic music you can find these discussions. Very often they exist in order to educate people, conserve what something might have been, keep commercial aspects from dominating taking over an artform that has roots in a long history.
Some years ago, I would have been able to say what is and what is not, but its getting blurry for me and I find it interesting to know other members ideas.
And not only the oohhh so higly regarded members which have been here for many years.



bursche -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 12:43:54)

Anything done by flamenco musicians is flamenco. They can't do anything else even if they try to play the blues. And don't ask me what makes a flamenco musician flamenco[;)]



guitarbuddha -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 14:15:27)

If you wanna hit a moving target aim for the centre. If you want to work on precision then set your own targets and make them small.

If you want the crowd to applaude use a bazooka. If you want them to applaude precision work then ..... good luck.

If you NEED them to applaude then always use the bazooka but make sure it's not actually a damp squib.

Oh, were we talking about flamenco...



Erik van Goch -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 14:24:25)

PDL tends to call everything flamenco that touches his heart, regardless if it's official "flamenco" or "just" a fabulous piece of Chick Corea, Astor Piazzolla or Bach.



Leñador -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 14:26:50)

quote:

PDL tends to call everything flamenco that touches his heart

I suppose it's what your raised with. I call everything that I like metal. "Did you hear that bulerias? It was f***ing metal!"



Erik van Goch -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 14:32:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

quote:

PDL tends to call everything flamenco that touches his heart

I suppose it's what your raised with. I call everything that I like metal. "Did you hear that bulerias? It was f***ing metal!"


i think that's so....

http://coachcarver.webs.com/apps/blog/entries/show/5020402-everything-is-kung-fu



shaun -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 14:39:15)

quote:

what makes a flamenco musician flamenco


A flamenco musician is a musician that plays flamenco, of course!

Since you're asking for viewpoints from lesser recognized members, I'll throw my two cents in. Combine what bursche said and what I just said and there you have it: Flamenco music is music played by flamenco musicians and flamenco musicians are musicians that play flamenco.

Basically, flamenco is a living art which means it is always changing. This is a good thing. It keeps the music current and relevant. Sometimes this means changing the musical arrangement, sometimes it means broadening the palos. A palo is included as part of the foundation of flamenco when it is accepted by the flamenco music community. When a significant proportion of flamenco musicians play a particular palo, I would think that it is accepted as part of that foundation.

This is just my view at this time. It is not meant to be taken as definitive.



bursche -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 14:41:35)

quote:

Flamenco music is music played by flamenco musicians and flamenco musicians are musicians that play flamenco.


OOOOoooh circular reasoning



gerundino63 -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 14:48:12)

This was my answer in 2005, still think the same about it......

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=20897&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=taps&tmode=&smode=&s=#20907



tele -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 14:55:07)

It's the first time I hear sevillanas aren't considered flamenco. I wonder what is this based on!

For me flamenco is the compas. Of course though if you do deathmetal riffs on bulerias compas it might be not flamenco, but keeping it with taste, I believe jazzy movements with the guitar while staying in compas can be called flamenco, especially when it's played in phrygian, major or minor scale



Leñador -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 15:02:11)

quote:

It's the first time I hear sevillanas aren't considered flamenco. I wonder what is this based on!


History [:D]
It wasn't traditionally flamenco, it was something non-flamenco Spaniards did at wealthy parties and what not. It was super popular so after a while the flamenco's adopted/adapted it. Whether or not you can now call it flamenco is another can of worms...........



Morante -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 15:13:43)

quote:

It's the first time I hear sevillanas aren't considered flamenco. I wonder what is this based on!


You obviouly don`listen to cante. Sevillanas are songs which can be sung in coro and the letras are fixed on the rhyrhm: CantaME por SevillANas etc.

Cante is libre: the singer does what he wants on top of the compás. If two can sing in unison it is not cante.



Erik van Goch -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 15:18:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shaun

quote:

what makes a flamenco musician flamenco


Flamenco music is music played by flamenco musicians and flamenco musicians are musicians that play flamenco.




My father thinks Vicente basically doesn't want to play flamenco anymore....but he has no other option because that's his roods and in his hands everything eventually becomes "flamenco". I have the same problem.... when i try to compose "label free" music it quite often get a Bach, Piazzolla, Erik Visser or Flamenco twist halfway the piece because certain melodic/harmonic cues somehow trigger my mind to jump to that mode...i hope to post a lovely free introduction once that was my first attempt to write film music....but after a fabulous start "a couple of notes" remind me to a similar note combination played by Vicente in a never recorded alegrias introduction and there i go again....flirting with alegrias/mineras, back to label free again but ending with some kind of a tangos in a tarantas key.


here is Vicente playing electric guitar at 3:00


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2dbzl_electric-guitar-vicente-amigo_creation#.UO2P8I7Sckg



Leñador -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 15:27:21)

quote:

Cante is libre: the singer does what he wants on top of the compás. If two can sing in unison it is not cante.

Here's a good example, and my favorite Sevillanas.
For the non-spanish speakers the song is about a women saying she married a midget so she could laugh at him all the time, great stuff.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 16:09:07)

Lots of interesting replys and they made me think. What about this one. Sevillanas cannot be flamenco because I like flamenco and I hate Sevillanas...

quote:

You obviouly don`listen to cante. Sevillanas are songs which can be sung in coro and the letras are fixed on the rhyrhm: CantaME por SevillANas etc.

Cante is libre: the singer does what he wants on top of the compás. If two can sing in unison it is not cante.


This brings up another can of worms. Rumbas are often not considered flamenco because they can be sung in a coro..... Some Fandangos de Huelva, especially the ones used in the local villages celebrations, the socalled ´romerias´are also been sung in coro, while other styles are strictly 1 person cante...

You can say that these are only definicions, but isnt it important to be able to define an artform? Do we accept whatever jazz jamsession in phrygian mode over a bulerias compás as being flamenco? If you ask local sinegers where I am, they´ll say that its not flamenco.



Erik van Goch -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 16:11:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

It's the first time I hear sevillanas aren't considered flamenco. I wonder what is this based on!


You obviouly don`listen to cante. Sevillanas are songs which can be sung in coro and the letras are fixed on the rhyrhm: CantaME por SevillANas etc.

Cante is libre: the singer does what he wants on top of the compás. If two can sing in unison it is not cante.



Nowadays many (if not all) flamenco forms embed parts that are danced/sung unisono, which indeed brings certain risks of loosing the flamenco spirit (like showing caged wild animals)....but the same can be said of staged performances starting at 20:00 tonight in your local theater.

As far as Sevillanas is concerned, that happens to be part of many sub-cultures of Spain (and as such is not excluded to flamenco alone) but just like the wonderful rumba it can get a certain flamenco treat when played "the flamenco-way".

This wonderful docu of Carlos Saura shows Sevillanas in various of those sub cultures....one of the many highlights happens to be the very peculiar song accompanying the end credits......it has an almost african kind of timing and is not very likely to be sung the same way by other singers.....




Anders Eliasson -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 16:29:18)

The funny thing is that when Sevillanas and rumbas are sung by really good flamenco singers (not in a coro), then I like it.
But when its sund unisone by a ´coro rociero´ I get sick very fast.
So maybe its just the same old circle, Flamenco is something done by flamencos.



BarkellWH -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 16:57:52)

Could it be that Sevillanas belongs more to Spanish "folk" music, as opposed to flamenco? Another thing, I have always understood that castanets are used by dancers much more in Spanish folk music and dances. They are rarely used in flamenco dancing. I guess what I'm driving at is, on the margins, does Spanish folk music sometimes bleed into flamenco, and that's why it is sometimes difficult to make a distinction? Of course, flamenco can be considered a genre of "folk" music as well. But for purposes of this conversation, I would draw a distinction between flamenco and what would be considered non-flamenco Spanish folk music.

Don't know if the above makes sense, but it is something I have thought about, and this thread seems as good a place as any to introduce it for discussion.

Cheers,

Bill



shaun -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 17:03:17)

quote:

isnt it important to be able to define an artform?


Not really. It doesn't enhance the art in any way. Art conjures thoughts and emotions but in the end it just comes down to whether or not you like it. Sometimes people identify with an art form when it really touches them. That's when you get heated discussions about what is and isn't flamenco. In the end I think you need to ask yourself "How does that make the art better?"



Morante -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 17:15:31)

Sevillanas are what remains of an old and universal Spanish folk song, originally called seguidillas. There were seguidillas de Aragón, Murcia, Navarra etc, etc: some still exist in primitive form. The only one which has really survived is the seguidilla sevillana, which today is called Sevillanas.

Several cantaores have recorded this tune in flamenco style, notably Mercè and Camaron. Cantaores of this calibre can make a national anthem sound flamenco[:)]



tele -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 17:21:22)

quote:

You obviouly don`listen to cante.



I do listen to it,
but I don't understand much about the basics of it.
[;)]



koenie17 -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 17:44:16)

In my opinion a good cantaor can make anything sound mu flamenco. For example Mi zapatero by Camaron y Tomatito, Feria del caballo del Moraito , Mediteraneo(Serrat) sung by Virginia Gamez sound very flamenco to me.
Altough after a couple of days of feria or at the rocio I get really fed up with Sevillanas. I think it has to do with the quality of the singer or singers. Like if someone doesn´t sing really well a couple of Siguiriyas or Malagueñas really can become a torture, but if the cante is good it can almost make me cry and I can listen to it forever.
For example when does the blues stop being the blues? When you don´t follow the I IV V chord progresion... Robben Ford does a mean jazz/blues. Like with flamenco i think a good blues singer or guitarist can make anything sound bluesy. As for flamenco If it touches me emocionaly or it makes me wanna dance and it sounds flamenco... For me it´s flamenco.



Erik van Goch -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 17:54:56)

I remember a fabulous Sevillanas (Ketama?) that changed culture in every copla...1 was played the blues way, the next one copied american country.....



Flamencito -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 17:59:22)

(as a beginner in the field) I do not feel able to state what is flamenco or not.

But since you are also interested in the opinions from Newbees, i can give a vague statement about how I feel about it.

To me the main indication why something is Flamenco is the compas, harmony, meaning, expression & creativity.

For example: something played in a 12 beat compas using a standard flamenco harmony is not flamenco yet.

Palos de ida y vuelta can be considered flamenco in my opinion if they include meaning, expression & creativity in a 'Flamenco way'

For that reason I don't consider myself playing flamenco (yet).

I wonder how my thoughts on this will develop in the future [;)]

Cheers



gounaro -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 18:14:30)

Anders, I really want your opinion about new Amigo's single as Elie started a thread.

Can you tell me if this is flamenco?

Cause another member of this thread says that it has celtic sounds. And i think that he's right, but you cant say that this is not flamenco either.

I think flamenco is the way you feel, walk, speek...

http://soundcloud.com/sonymusicspain/roma-vicente-amigo



Erik van Goch -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 18:29:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flamencito

something played in a 12 beat compas using a standard flamenco harmony is not flamenco yet.



Speaking about the 12 beat system..... did anyone of you ever noticed that the compas of Sevillanas in a funny way "copies" the compas structure of the 12 beat palos......

If you annotate Sevillanas in a 3/4 beat system the melody covers 9 bars and the in-between chords 3 bars (like 10,11,12 in soleares)....and like soleares the finishing beat is the first beat of the 10th bar...isn't that fun :-)



Anders Eliasson -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 18:30:21)

Some say that the most important thing in flamenco is attitude which goes well with what flamencito wrote
And, of course, there´s folklore in flamenco (I didnt say it was folk music) Especially the fandangos, verdiales etc are heavily influenced by folklore.

The other day, here in Beas, I saw the salvation army singing villancicos (spanish christmas songs) and some could say that it was like a kind of flamenco.

Gounaro, I cant hear the Amigo single. Your link lead nowhere and the link in the other thread says that people in my country (Spain) are not allowed to hear it.



Leñador -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 18:33:57)

quote:

did anyone of you ever noticed that the compas of Sevillanas in a funny way "copies" the compas structure of the 12 beat palos


I did notice that when I first learned Sevillanas, at the time I was obsessed with counting and breaking everything down on paper to get to the bottom of this compas madness. If I learned it today I never would have, I would just played it.

I'm going theorize on why with no evidence to back me up.
I think this is due to the flamenco's and that before they got a hold of it, it was structured a little differently.



mezzo -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 19:04:48)

quote:

A flamenco musician is a musician that plays flamenco, of course!

I do not agree with this idea. A lots of of flamenco artist/musician could play or explore others fields. By doing this, they do not necessarily transform what they touched in gold (read flamenco).

Raimundo Amador is a freakin good flamenco but when he plays blues or rock, he not performs flamenco imo.
Tomasito is also a flamenco artist, but his 'back in black' version is not a flamenco one.
Navajita Platea too with his 'noche de bohemia'...
When Diego el Cigala sings Salsa with Bebo Valdes, he's not transforming the stuff in salsenco.

Eventually there are a lot more example of this but that's what came to my mind atm!


Also from my beginner POV, what determine what is or is not flamenco, it's my original education.
I mean that as flamenco is not my culture, I'm a student at it. So I had teachers whom taught me what is and what's not in the first place. Then with the accumulation of knowledge, I could confirm or infirm what I was told about.
e.g with sevillanas, I was quickly aware that it was outside the flamenco palos coz teachers and pro flamenco artists told me so. After that, what I read about and listen confirm me in this direction.
I thought it was obvious for everyone, but then I realized that many others flamenco students consider sevillanas as part of the bizness. So we have an argument about and they tried to twist my mind, but I resist and continu to think that this form is not flamenco...

It's pretty clear that we don't have the same original knowledge regarding flamenco. We came to it from different approches and with diverse tools to aprehend it.



Leñador -> RE: When is something flamenco and when is it not flamenco? (Jan. 9 2013 19:21:44)

quote:

Tomasito


This guy irritates me, is that not a very flamenco comment?



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