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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

the ultimate Conde! 

How did I miss this????

http://www.condehermanos.com/en/guitars/List/listing/modelo-al-di-meola-145/1

It's got it all: the name association, the cutaway, AND it's made in China! I wonder if I Stephen Faulk will make me a copy?..

But wait! how does AdM play with it? - with RMC pickups of course!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2012 19:21:31
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

I'm reading a book on Paco and learning some interesting things. One about
Al, I always liked Al Di Meola but I read that Paco did not enjoy working with him at all and that apart from playing fast he did not gain anything from the relationship and also that Al always wanted things done his ways, he is quite explicit about it. It was interesting to read.

So it's funny watching them 'work' together. Just like working with people you don't get along with at work!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2012 19:31:29
 
turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to rogeliocan

what's the name of the book?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2012 19:51:08
 
rombsix

Posts: 7608
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to rogeliocan

I remember reading / watching an interview which said that Paco once punched Al in the face and that is why they had a hiatus for a long time before (if ever?) playing together again. Not sure about this information, but that is what I remember - not sure if after that incident (if it did actually happen) they ever played together again...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2012 19:51:39
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 550
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

As much as I like Al's music, he's known for being tough to get along with and just an ass in general. It's not hard to see that John and Paco got a long great in the trio, had some great moments playing music together, and Al was the outsider per-se bringing negative energy. Al's solo work is much better than anything he did in the trio IMO. The trio really wasn't the place for him though he had a great solo part in orient blue suite from the passion grace and fire album.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2012 20:25:28
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

Ive never been into his solo stuff. I have a very stringent order in which i like the solo parts of the trio guys which is 1.Al / Larry Corryell 2.Paco 3.McLaughlin. This seems to be the case in almost all pieces of them.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2012 20:38:47
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

quote:

what's the name of the book?


Paco de Lucia en Vivo. It's different, from a sense that it is written from interviews with Paco and also many around him. So he brings all of these together. Because of this, the book is not chronological.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2012 21:08:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

About the guitar, Al had his orginal sobrinos altered by CHris carrington, the luthier that also played with him in world sinfonia. I guess conde copied the idea and now its an endorsement deal.

About Al...to give him credit it was always HIS idea to do the guitar duo thing. Lets be honest, Entre dos Aguas made Paco famous in europe but mediterranean sundance made paco WORLD famous as Al DI was playing ARENAS not small concert halls at that time. THe Trio idea was J. Mclaughlin's idea after hearing that duet anyway. Original was to be Paco John and John williams or some other classical player...3 different styles...but it would be impossible unless all 3 could adapt to chart reading and improvisation. So they end up with super guitar trio with Larry and then John switch to nylon to make up for the missing sound of a "classical nylon" guitar. So steel, nylon, and flamenco. Al only wanted duets with Paco and still tried and failed recording of fantasia suite. Passion grace and fire got recorded finally. But meanwhile larry got ill (wasted?? LOL) and so Al wanted paco and paco said hey I am going with JOhn come with me.

So the famous trio ended up on AL's label, and it would never had been so huge had not THOSE 3 got together. So now the negative stuff. Al was the younger guy and had the ego to deal with that the more seasoned guys didn't have as much (my opinion). When they arrived to record second album...Paco apparantly was not so happy about med sun not getting Paco royalty credit. Especially after success. So Al like whatever...so wrote Paco a check (yeah it's really Paco's tune anyway except the intro 20 sec...it's entre dos aguas mixed with rio ancho)...so like "happy now???" then paco said in front of him "John I ll play on any of your record free anytime" and so begun the rift.

Mclaughin reunited the trio for one tune on "the promise" and then everybody around them had idea of trio reunion. They recorded...and anybody that is into these guys can tell that Al did a lot of work on it vs the other two...interms of it being a new music project. Even al has a solo piece that the other two had no time to learn. Anyway they hit the road. Al has tinnitus (ringing in the ears) and has constant tuning problems. Paco got impatient and told Al not so nicely to fix the darn tuning. Al exploded about past on him and finally Paco punched his face. Al went to the hospital. I heard about this even from 3 or 4 indepentant sources and years ago it was semi confirmed by Al's behavior on his own forum. lawyers got involved and the tour continued peacefully but not friendly. Mclaughlin was asked and said "the only egoless persons are saints, and you don't find saints playing guitar"....so they all admit fault but moved passed it.

Now after all that drama....Mclaughlin box comes out, 17 CDs or somehting. He wants to use montreux trio show but AL says NO WAY. In fact in his own words I read on his forum he said "that's not the john mclaughlin trio...offer it for release separate from the box or you can't use it"...also bad mouthed Mclaughlin's manager. Also to mess with those guys he offered his own vault copy of vid footage of FNISF...(which I went out of my way to get at his show...it was crap bootleg, then he took it all back on his forum and said someone ELSE was peddling bootlegs at his show!!!!! LOL) IN a mclaughlin interview he frankly states, there will NOT ever be a trio union in the future. Instead you have the Paco John duo concert which is great anyway. Paco and john continue to play. That concert in 2010 where AL was in Germany...well it's just one song but a surprise. Obvious paco didn't move past it...but hey it's still cool they could at least get on stage and do that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 3:21:43
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

At least this guitar is one of the cheaper ones.... 11000,-€ is a fantastic deal.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 8:20:52
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

I have been saying it ever since:
The interplay of the three was precisely nada, with everyone just going on with his own rifs completely missing out on each other.

Each and every spontaneous session I have been pariticpating in or witnessing on private events has had so much more glue than the musical broke of the three.

Give me any solo production of Paco or Al over that awkward trio thingy anyday.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 9:39:10
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

At least this guitar is one of the cheaper ones.... 11000,-€ is a fantastic deal.


YEP... fantastic deal!!!
anyone who buys this is a farking idiot...
if it's 2000euro then its worth it..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 10:20:57
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

About Al...


Holy crapas, that is detail. None of that in that book.
So this info is from Al's blog and from where else?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 10:51:40
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Anders Eliasson

quote:


At least this guitar is one of the cheaper ones.... 11000,-€ is a fantastic deal.


I must say all the +10 000 condes seem too high in price. Famous but inflated

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 12:03:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

I have been saying it ever since:
The interplay of the three was precisely nada, with everyone just going on with his own rifs completely missing out on each other.

Each and every spontaneous session I have been pariticpating in or witnessing on private events has had so much more glue than the musical broke of the three.

Give me any solo production of Paco or Al over that awkward trio thingy anyday.

Ruphus


That's your opinion, but I disagree 100%. Lots of good stuff in there that no other ensemble or substitute personnel could have achieved. But then again, I learned to play a lot of it...it makes a difference I guess. Most people see on the surface only a fast scale and competition of sorts. There is A LOT more there, if anyone cares to explore I would be happy to go in detail.

quote:

Holy crapas, that is detail. None of that in that book.
So this info is from Al's blog and from where else?


That is my personal summary after taking tons of info from various sources, watering down the exaggerated parts, and putting it into some sort of logical order. Sources include both interviews and anecdotes from "insiders" and personal experience dealing with Al Di meola directly on his forum. He would delete heated threads himself. It was fun to watch, but I was very surprised cuz I found it hard to believe many of the stories I had heard....but where there is smoke there is fire it seems.

Some technical side notes: THe famous live album was not totally friday night music of the trio. IT was spliced and edited from at least two nights. The only proof was in the vid bootleg i got thanks to tip from al dimeola himself...he said it was from his vault the real show. ONly the first 5 minutes was from the record the rest spliced together. I challenged him on his foro about splice job and he denied ever telling us about it and deleted the thread. (He said F. j mclaughlin cuz he wouldn't let him release it...i said maybe he didn't want to release cuz vid reveals FRIDAY NIGHT was an edit job not a true single concert). IN addition it was slightly sped up on record...it adds both brightness and excitement but could be a mistake of tape reels...hard to guess the reason. Clearly Al had control cuz he edits a run there, and poor paco had to keep all his bad notes on tape.

ON the trio reunion tour one special spot they did was pavoratti and friends concert. THere is a video. Again Al had ear problems but paco starts compas and Al is off or crossed in the time. I am sure that made Paco peeved too!

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 13:22:47
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

Hey Ricardo,

As much as you might musically theorize into it:

It will change little to nothing on the fact that the three were all too obviously taken away by public´s appreciation of the day, missing out on meeeting beforehand for an appropriate period of time ( like a couple of weeks at least ) to first of all generate something together.
They clearly overestimated the possibility of spontaneously producing / improvising a gig that would yield something:
# new / enriching foregone output / worth the event
# spoon out from the teaming up
At best compose some new pieces together, just like your common band will.

Instead their coming together brought nothing other to the table than exactly the "fast scale and competition of sorts" that were flattering none of them. ( Not even McL.´s, whose fumbled venyls after a couple of eager turntable sessions never did anything other than gathering dust in my shelve anyway.)


I always admire your musical competence, but am confident enough of my musical perception to tell apart a patent dud from musical creation.

If your analysing or playing after has been giving satisfaction in a way, that be just the more outlandish to me ( why on earth playing after athletic pedaling, when you can have the original pieces harmonically round / in compository complementing order and undisturbed?). Musically that SNISF thingy remains a very obvious understatement for who knows the based-on discography; a missed opportunity and performance broke.


Be honest: Can it be that you didn´t widely know the artists´ repertoire at the point in time when you took the hazzles to play after SNISF?


The three should had prepared before the gigs as due, and could easily have turned out something pulling.
Could have been even McLaughling to contribute something spicy.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 14:31:51
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Ruphus

LOL, no need to theorize it at all: The Trio's stuff just ROCKS!! :)
When i watch those German TV videos from the 80's, where they filled huge open air arenas, i refrain to compare the stuff that nowadays fills the arenas to it... so sad that this kind of stuff doesnt exist in this amount anymore. Flamenco, with few exceptions, is getting more uniform and boring too IMO. FNISF was unique in its way and probably will never come back, unless we have a get-together by similar gifted players. But even then there seems no market for it anyways....

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 14:34:50
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 550
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Instead you have the Paco John duo concert which is great anyway. Paco and john continue to play.


There's a lot of great Paco and John duo videos on youtube, my favorite is the live videos from Frieburg in 1986 I do believe it was. That was an amazing concert. Kinda makes a statement when you never see Al and John, or Paco and Al videos from back then.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 15:05:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ruphus

Hey Ricardo,

As much as you might musically theorize into it:

It will change little to nothing on the fact that the three were all too obviously taken away by public´s appreciation of the day, missing out on meeeting beforehand for an appropriate period of time ( like a couple of weeks at least ) to first of all generate something together.
They clearly overestimated the possibility of spontaneously producing / improvising a gig that would yield something:
# new / enriching foregone output / worth the event
# spoon out from the teaming up
At best compose some new pieces together, just like your common band will.

Instead their coming together brought nothing other to the table than exactly the "fast scale and competition of sorts" that were flattering none of them. ( Not even McL.´s, whose fumbled venyls after a couple of eager turntable sessions never did anything other than gathering dust in my shelve anyway.)


I always admire your musical competence, but am confident enough of my musical perception to tell apart a patent dud from musical creation.

If your analysing or playing after has been giving satisfaction in a way, that be just the more outlandish to me ( why on earth playing after athletic pedaling, when you can have the original pieces harmonically round / in compository complementing order and undisturbed?). Musically that SNISF thingy remains a very obvious understatement for who knows the based-on discography; a missed opportunity and performance broke.


Be honest: Can it be that you didn´t widely know the artists´ repertoire at the point in time when you took the hazzles to play after SNISF?


The three should have prepared before the gigs as due, and could had easily turned out something pulling.
Could have been even McLaughling to contribute something spicy.

Ruphus


Again, you are entitled to your generaliztions. We could get into specifics if you truely cared...but since you don't, you win. It sucked for you, you gain nothing from such a fusion, my admitance that there is depth and inspiration there is "outlandish". Ok great, your loss. Now moving on with actual playing music.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=46084&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#46084

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 15:36:19
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 550
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

Ricardo, thanks for the link to the thread above, it is very informative. You're going to make me have to actual read music with the Aspan trascription . I've been working on "David" from the 1986 live video for a while on and off. I like it better than the cd version. Do you know of any transcriptions for that piece floating around, cd or otherwise?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 14 2012 17:11:36
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

The thing that stands out to me here is that no one has commented on Al's horrid, horrid sounding guitar. That thing sounds like dog crap twice warmed over and served on moldy foot greased rotten canvas skater shoes.

Yeech- it ain't a duck, but it sure quacks like one.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 2:08:59
 
estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

I'm also with Ruphus that FNISF is a total abomination.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 2:10:59
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 865
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

For some people that Album is what led them through a winding path to
Paco, and ultimately this forum ... I started listening to Flamenco, out of
"Who is this Paco guy?" curiosity.

I like it, so I'm in the - It's not an abomination camp.

Regards,
Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 4:45:33
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to tele

quote:



quote:


At least this guitar is one of the cheaper ones.... 11000,-€ is a fantastic deal.



I must say all the +10 000 condes seem too high in price. Famous but inflated


¿So you think the the 9900,-€ Condes have a a socalled fair price?

Well, thats the way our world funcions. Evereything is like that..... Buy it or leave it. Justice is $€

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 7:34:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13334
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I'm also with Ruphus that FNISF is a total abomination.

Great! You two can start your own hate club. So glad you all found each other in the lonely darkness of guitar trio lovers. !

quote:

The thing that stands out to me here is that no one has commented on Al's horrid, horrid sounding guitar.


Either cuz it's all pick up or the cutaway alteration removed part of the specially tuned salted brace.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 13:15:55
 
Mark2

Posts: 1696
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

I like some of Al's work, especially with Return to Forever, and some stuff off his own records. Also I'm a fan of JM, from his electric group to his Indian influenced stuff to his brilliant solo acoustic record, My Goals Beyond. I like some of Larry's stuff too, but when listening to the trio, it"s clear that Paco is so much better.

Paco, who apparantly had little experience in improvising solos, time and time again, just blows the other guys out with phrasing, note selection, commitment, and flat out excitement. You can hear the audience clearly react more to Paco's solos in many of the live vids.

I think the sound of picado is more exciting than pick playing, but it's more than that. Paco is simply a way better guitarist than all of his fellow trio guitarists. And given the company, and the fact that he's operating outside his core style, that's pretty impressive.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 15:12:36
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

specially tuned salted brace.


Could you elaborate. Any forks around
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 15:26:09
 
ralexander

Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

the cutaway alteration removed part of the specially tuned salted brace.


damn, I almost lost a mouthful of coffee over that line

This thread reminded me how I first became interested in flamenco - it was Paco's playing on the 96 Trio reunion album!! That opened the floodgates....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 15:34:15
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

I spent 15 years +/- playing with a pick and it just doesn't do it for me anymore. Even guys that I used to think are amazing I listened to now and there's a little part of my brain that saying "yeah.......but it's with a pick." I dunno, used to love ADL but lately I'm just not feeling it.......much respect but the magic is gone for me......

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 17:09:56
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

I suppose I should qualify this, in relation to the kind of flamenco I love and support, the trio work is totally uninteresting. In relation to Beethoven or Bartok string quartets, also lackluster. Compared to Wayne Shorter or Coltrane or John Mc Laughlin working with Miles Davis, I prefer JMcL, Train and Wayne. And I never liked Al in any way shape or form. If I were to like a jazz player in Al's age range it would be Scofield.

So it simply boils down to what you like, and if you don't like certain things it means you don't like them. Other people don't have to get offended because you don't like something. And you don't have any right to put them down and adopt the -I can explain this to you and save you from your own ignorance - attitude. I can explain a lot of things about 20th century music that goes way over most peoples heads. But I don't tell them they are wrong if they simply don't like Alfred Schnittke riffing off of an idea of Shostokovich or Toru Takemitsu writing music about redwood tree forests in California.

If you don't like something, you simply don't like it, it often times does not mean you are stupid or ignorant. It just means you don't like it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 17:30:47
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: the ultimate Conde! (in reply to turnermoran

There was one take on one of Al´s albums that I had taken to tape for the road.

Pick or not: It was just exploding and pulling. I am sure that I would still love to listen to it today.
Too bad that I don´t remember album and title.

.. Sorry for the useless pointer.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 15 2012 17:48:05
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