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tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Escribano

I like the idea but currently I have no microphone to record flamenco guitar. I'll get one someday

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2012 17:18:15
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to dararith

quote:

ORIGINAL: dararith

quote:

Here's one solea that shows how emphasizing the accents isn't too straightforward, and I would appreciate more tips on learning about "compas relation to the guitar".


Diego del Morao's Ganaina?? Yes...it's very beautiful. He plays with the rhythm a lot and may not even accent on where you think the accents are for a solea...but it grooves with the compas...there's no rule.

Try doing palmas with it, if you hadn't already. See if you can hold the compas WHILE listening to his music. You'll hear how he plays with the rhythm in accent before the expected accents to give it more emphasis, and the melodic phrasing even hints at it too (although Diego takes this a step further and go against the expected at times). I think people play this way since they already have compas security and don't want to limit themselves to the standard accents. Diego is exceptional at this.



In my opinion this says it all. Music is like language, to express yourself you need to learn the words, the grammar and the correct pronounciation. Asking how Diego's Solea is related to the compas feels a little bid like asking to explain Shakespeare to someone who just started to learn english. Compas (like language) is learned in small steps by the principle of monkey see, monkey do. The answers you seek can only be found by listening to the masters a lot and by playing a lot yourself. Finding yourself a good coach/teacher (and trying not to solve everything in 1 day) can be a big help.

So in stead of asking us to explain the complete shakespeare (which takes a lifetime) just start with a couple of tunes you feel comfortable with and work your way up from there. For a start try if you can fallow/hold the compas when you listen to the masters, like dararith suggested. Over the years (the relation to) the compas will become more and more clear up to a point were it becomes second nature.

Paco de Lucia is an excellent place to start your investigations since he is always very clear in his compas and played very structural for years before he allowed himself some more freedom. You can indeed listen to his tracks in order of recording date like Ricardo suggested. In fact i did so myself since i listen to both Paco de Lucia/Paco Peña since the early 70ties and witnessed (an important part of) that evolution first hand.

Ricardo also suggested to fallow the trail of evolution by listening to the old masters as well. You might run into a famous Soleares played by Niño Ricardo that "includes" the famous and (prehistoric) ligado (binding) introduction:

-0--------------------------------0-------------------------------0--------------------0--------0------------------------------
-0--------------------------------0-------------------------------0--------------------1--------0-------------------*-----------
-1--------------------------------1-------------------------------1--------------------2--------1------------------------------
-2-3-2-0--2-3-2-0--2-x-x-x--2-3-2-0--2-3-2-0-2-x-x-x--2-3-2-0--2-x-x-x-3-x-x-x-2-x-x-x--x-x-x-x--x-x-x-x
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.............2............3.............4...........5............6...........7............8...........9..........10........11..........12


The chords at 9 and 10 are basic soleares. The preceding bindings are practiced by many generations in various settings. Probably the most famous variation (annotated above) involves the sequence <2320,2320,2xxx> being played on 1,2,3, repeated on 4,5,6 and then comes back in a shorter version covering 7/8

2320,2320,2xxx,2320,2320,2xxx,2320,2xxx
1.......2.......3,.....4.......5.......6,......7......8,.....


So the compas relation is that the bindings are extended to (and stop on) main beats 3, 6 and 8. This seems to be a perfect example of a melody that fallows compas rules but at the same time it isn't. Actually i wouldn't be surprised if the famous 2320,2320,2 part originally was't intended for beat 1,2,3 at all. If i remember well Niño Ricardo's adaption of the theme in his famous soleares dropped it at beat 3,4,5! In that variation the bindings don't END on the main accents but START on the main accents (3 and 6). This would also explains the (seemingly misplaced) chord-stroke that start the theme. Normally chord-pulses like that are used to emphasize the main accents and in Niño Ricardo's version that was exactly what they were doing, emphasizing beat 3 and 6. But before you jump to conclusions >>>chords can be played at any given location of the compas as long as it is tasteful and fits the total picture.

-0---------------------0----------0---------0------------0-------------------------------0--------0--
-0---------------------1----------0---------1------------0-------------------------------1--------0--
-1---------------------2----------1---------2------------1-------------------------------2--------1--
-2-3-3-0--2-x-x-x--3-x-x--x--2-x-x-x--3-x-x-x-x--2-3-2-0--2-3-2-0-2-x-x-x--3-x-x-x--2-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.1.............2...........3.............4...........5...............6............7...........8............9...........10

The same idea but slightly different:

-0----------0---------0----------0---------0------------0-------------------------------0--------0
-0----------1---------3----------2---------1------------0-------------------------------1--------0
-1----------2---------4----------3---------2------------1-------------------------------2--------1
-2-x-x--x--3-x-x-x--5-x-x-x--4-x-x-x--3-x-x-x--x--2-3-2-0--2-3-2-0-2-x-x-x--3-x-x-x-2
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have no idea how old the theme is (i believe it already occurs in transcriptions around 1900, way before Niño Ricardo adapted it). I have no idea if the bindings originally were supposed to start on the main beats or to finish on them (both ideas are practiced). These various versions show that compas-relationship is not something that can be "caught" in a list of "everlasting" rules but is subject to context and personal/collective taste and evolution.

At the same time there are strict rules indeed and nothing Diego and other masters are doing is done randomly. That's why we still consider it to be flamenco. Niño Ricardo happened to be an emotional player and sometimes his fabulous ideas missed a beat in the heat of the battle. Paco Peña plays lot's of traditional flamenco of Niño Ricardo, Sabicas and Ramon Montoya with equal or improved compas-structure.

Like i stated before, compas is EVERYWHERE (clapping, feet-taps, music) but the most important compas is the one we tap and the one we feel INSIDE! When Diego plays the Solea (por bulerias) you posted i have no problem understanding the compas-relationship because (like diego) i enjoy the events ON TOP of the basic compas i feel inside. Everything he plays is done very tasteful and he basically is exploring (but not abandoning) acceptable compas behavior.

So once again everything has to be guided/measured/enjoyed ON TOP of an internally felt compass (preferably settled in your DNA). And that internally felt compas can change depending on the melodic/rhythmic pulse. Although the official pulse of soleares, alegrias, bulerias and solea (por bulerias) promotes accents on 3,6,8,10,12, many, many melodies fallow a different accentuation. Fortunately the majority of these (to untrained ears maybe non conformistic) variations fit into one of usually well known alternative compas-pulses.

Bulerias has main accents on 12-3-6-8-10 but many melodies fallow other accents. Personally i go with the flow so if a bulerias melodie fallows a 2 or 3 beat pattern over a longer period of time both my foot taps and my inner compas temporary adapts the same pulse:

Adapting a 3 beat pattern in bulerias (accents on12-3-6-9):

12--3--/6-8-10- (basic)
12--3--/6-8-10- (basic)
***********************
12--3--/6--9-- (adapting a 3 beat pattern, repeated as long as needed)
12--3--/6-(8-10) (concluding compas before returning to basic)
***********************

previous conformation just copied the first half of the compas (12--3-->>>6--9--). If it copies the second half (6-8-10) it conforms to a 2 beat pattern

12--3--/6-8-10-(basic)
12--3--/6-8-10-(Basic)
*************
12-2-4/6-8-10- (adapting a 2 beat pattern as long as needed)
12-2-4/6-(8-10) (concluding compas before going back to basis)

12-2-4 basically feels the same as 6-8-10. If this 2 beat pulse continues over a longer period of time additional chains can be added in 6 beat chains feeling/tapping the pulse *-*-*- (either 12-2-4-or 6-8-10). Depending on the melody these short *** chains can be added paired (still feeling full compas) or unpaired. This last option is called half compas. Various aspects involved i mentioned at another post involving a bulerias falseta played by diego.

In all previous variations you can give (even bigger) accents on 12 and 6, being the REAL downbeat of every 6 beat chain (downbeat officially means 1st beat of a bar).

So in Bulerias i vary my inner pulse to fit the melody..... i can switch instantly and without thinking between:

12--3--/6-8-10-
12--3--/6--9--
12-2-4-/6-8-10

Personally i alter both my inner compas AND my foot tapping to fit the natural pulses of the melody, but various people adapt various systems:

Paco de lucia basically can tap (12)**-**-**-** with all melodies (which indeed fit's al pulses)
Moraito and Diego basically can tap *-*-*-/*-*-* with all melodies.

So foot taps can vary from moment to moment and from person to person and sometimes seem to fallow a completely different pulse as the music you hear. The previously mentioned morao-2-beat pulse drives me mad when adapted on top of a 3 beat pattern melody, but that's how they do it. And it doesn't hinder them to play the right accents in conflicting melodies because (as you know) foot taps are just one pillar to time your notes, the other pilar is the compas you feel INSIDE which can fallow a completely different pulse. I have no idea what a morao feels inside when he taps a 2 beat pattern on top of a 3 beat melody.

Bulerias is not the only style adapting alternative accent lines. In the previously mentioned soleares variation (top one) i personally don't feel accents on 3, 6 and 8 but simply go with the flow of the chords (1--4--7-9,10-(12) but for the sake of argument i just played it FEELING accents on 3,6,8 and 10 in stead and that worked out extremely well to...that's also how i would clap it)

Another (antique) pulse occasionally occurring in soleares, alegrias and solea is

>.>....>....../>.>.....>..........
1-2-3-4-5-6/7-8-9-10-11-12

The second part (7,8-10--) also is a basic pattern for hand clapping and the first half simply copies that. This pulse occasionally adds an extra half compas as well (adding 6 extra beats to the compas).


So to understand copas relationship first of all you must have an inner relation with the compas yourself. Once you have a severe inner compas, know the various (and sometimes opposite) structural conformations that can occur within a compas and are able to switch from one conformation to the other without thinking, then you are able to enjoy flamenco like intended. This can not be learned in a day or a week or a month, it takes years.


So my advise is to combine:

Studying the compas treatment of masters like Paco de Lucia and Paco Peña.
Picking up the guitar yourself, restricting to material that fits your (growing) technical level/compas awareness.
"Restrict" your questions to practical levels like how to feel/interpret the (simpler) material you are learning to play.
If possible take some lessons with an expert.
The answers will come over the years in bits and pieces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 24 2012 23:43:37
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Erik van Goch

Thanks for taking the time to put this info down. It really is alot of help. Even when I'm a beginner I would like to know what guitarist can and can't do within compas. I suppose it really is best for now to try to listen to the compas of masters and learn some complete songs in different flamenco styles.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 25 2012 10:46:08
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

Your welcome. I added/altered some parts since you read it.

The main message is that there are strict rules for how to construct flamenco melodies, but those rules are not dogmatic or easy to explain (in the same way it is difficult to explain the mechanism behind choosing/arranging words in a language). Each melody has it's own story and has to be viewed/studied on it's own merits. It all comes to experience. The more you hear, the more you understand over the years, there's no short cut.

The pulse you feel inside can be different than the pulse you tap with your foot. Various people can tap the same melody differently (or even vary tapping them self). Your foot tap and inner compas are your main reference to drop the notes (presuming you don't have a percussionist). They are either on the beat, exactly between the beats (contra tiempo and probably what Ricardo meant with counter beats) or somewhere between those points.

12 (and) 1 (and) 2 (and) 3 (and) 4 (and) 5 (and) 6 (and) 7 (and) 8 (and) 9 (and) 10 (and) 11 (and)

If a melody starts behind the beat i call it off beat(others may probably use that term for all notes that ain't played on the beat). If a note is shifted from the beat itself to a point preceding the beat that's called a syncope


12....1....2......3 can be played straight on the beat but also with added swing by playing them in the front of the beat (syncopic)

*is foot tap

12AND,*AND,*AND,- (1,2 and 3 played syncopated)

Often long chains of cyncopated notes are paired with on beat notes on the main accents. In that case the note before the plugged (main) beat doesn't replace the beat itself and isn't called a syncope but just a passing note....

12AND,*AND,and/3AND,*AND*and/6AND,*and/8AND,-and/10AND,*and/

AND is replacing the beat (syncope)
and isn't replacing the beat(passing note)

Syncopic melody Bulerias (pulse 12-3/6-9/12-3/6-8-10)


-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
----3~3--2~2-2---0~2~0---------- repeat 3 times
-1-----------------------------4--1~4-
-----------------------------------------

12AND*AND*and 3and 4and 5and.............
-6........................9......................
12.......................3.....................


---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------
--0-x--x----------0-----------0-x--x--x----------
------------1~3-------3~4-----------------------

...6.....7 and.8..and 9 and 10...11...



or even

-0--x----------0------------0~0-x-x-x----------------
---------1~3-------3~4--------------------------------
.6..and.7and.8...and.9.AND10


******************************************************

When you have to repeat the same phrase 2 or 3 times in a row it is your moral obligation to include some small variations on the theme like a different melody note, an extra passing note or simply a rhythmic variation....for instance:() is optional variation


------------------(0)----------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-----3--------2--------2----0~2~0-------------------------------
-1------(1)-----------------------------4--1~(0)------------------....or 3th time --4~3--1~0-
---------------------------------------------------------------------........................and.5.and.6
12.AND.1..AND.2...and...3.and.4.and.5.and
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 2:16:55
 
dararith

Posts: 120
Joined: Jun. 4 2010
From: Oakland, CA

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

Asking how Diego's Solea is related to the compas feels a little bid like asking to explain Shakespeare to someone who just started to learn english.


Nice. =)

I can't outclass you in message length! I learned some things from your post earlier. So much content, are you a teacher?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 10:09:04
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to dararith

quote:

ORIGINAL: dararith

I can't outclass you in message length! I learned some things from your post earlier. So much content, are you a teacher?



I used to be one...i was one of the first students of Paco Peñas University school of flamenco in Rotterdam and after 8 years of study i actually became the 3th official flamenco guitar teacher in the world. That degree means nothing special to me (you still have to prove yourself as a teacher/performer) but (theoretical) it maight open doors that remains closed to others. Funny enough i'm more likely to get a position as a teacher at a Spanish university school of music than lets say Manolo Sanlucar (for no other reason than that he lacks the official documents, ridiculous off course but true). Actually Paco Serrano came to Rotterdam for a couple of years as well because he needed that official degree in order to be excepted as a flamenco teacher at the university of music of Cordoba. His presence turned out to be one of mutual benefits since he had quite a lot to offer himself :-)

If you think my posts are lengthy you should have seen the lessons i used to give...my students came (and paid) for 1 hour but often stayed for 3 or 4 hours :-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 13:54:06
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:


If you think my posts are lengthy you should have seen the lessons i used to give...my students came (and paid) for 1 hour but often stayed for 3 or 4 hours :-)


Awesome

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2012 18:23:04
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo

quote:


Regarding guitar solos, melodic phrasing tends to be symmetrical in the sense we most often end a melodic phrase on 6 (down beat) or 10 (tail end of compas). THis allows a square feeling such that a melody ending on 6 gets rounded off by some interesting rasgueado or other type of phrase (remate) which nicely answers the melody. Other melodic phrases that end on 10 are thought to already include the remate within the notes themselves such that the full idea is complete and no "answer" is needed. THe new cycle begins afterwards on the downbeat of 12. In the case of buleria mainly (although this happens in some guitar solos of alegria in minor key and solea too ie slow compas) it is acceptable to do half compases. So if a phrase ends on 4 of a cycle, it is taken to feel as 10 and the next 6 becomes 12 of a new cycle.


Does anyone have tab example of this kind of 6->12 remate for bulerias or solea?

When doing half compases or going for a remate, is the idea to use the count 4 like the count 10 is usually used? So basically leaving one beat between the downbeat?
When you said that the phrases are most often ended on 6 or 10 I wonder how is the 6 treated melodically? As 10 has one beat between the downbeat and 6 is the downbeat there is a difference, so would actually the phrase ending beats be 4 and 10 if both are treated the same melodically(one beat between the downbeat)?

thanks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2012 18:12:25
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

Like Ricardo said if it ends on 4 it is treated as being 10 and if the melody ends on 6 instead you have to extent it "artificially" to beat 10 by adding an interesting rasguado or another 4 beat extension that fits the situation.

The fun of half compas is that you don't have to count at all:


12-2-4-
6-8-10-

is replaced by (not counted) foot taps *-*-*- (covering 6 beats, tapping every even beat).

If the melody ends on 3th tap that's called 10 (and 12 is the next tap)
If the melody ends on 1th tap that's called 6 and you have to fill in the missing 2 taps to 10 yourself in order to conclude the circle. 6>>10.12 (with for instance a rasgueado starting on 7 ending on 10 like 777,888,999,10 colpe 12)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2012 23:23:59
 
tele

Posts: 1462
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RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Erik van Goch

Thanks for clearing that up, does this apply to every 12 beat compas style?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 3 2012 10:45:31
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

Anyone? thanks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 5 2012 19:19:22
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Thanks for clearing that up, does this apply to every 12 beat compas style?


I can't give a 100% guarantee, but as far as i can think of the not counted "neutral" 1/2 compas *-*-*- pattern i described (and melodys ending on 6th beat) are probably restricted to bulerias. However, the other 12 beat styles of the soleares/bulerias group can adapt/embed bulerias elements and especially the dance quite often ends with a bulerias swing. The cadence 777,888,999,10 is part of all styles of the soleares/bulerias group as well....dancers often execute this cadence:

>>.>....(>).....>............>....(>)
1,2,3,-,-,-,777,888,999,10-(12)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2012 14:50:42
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Erik van Goch

I was thinking more about the ending counts/half compases, if one can apply these principles to all of the 12 beat compases. thanks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2012 11:43:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Thanks for clearing that up, does this apply to every 12 beat compas style?


Conceptually and mathematically YES...it can and would. But simply put it has been fashionable and trendy to only do it in buleria. THe reason I think is because of the maestros that have been copied. For example R. Montoya and Borrul Jr have been caught doing exaclty this for solea and solea por buleria. But since the days of Melchor and N. Ricardo, it is NOT been done except in the odd guitar solo. Jerezanos (morao parrilla cepero etc) stick with the practices of those two guys too and only let the half compas happen in bulerias...(by let I mean almost always doing it). ON norman's site he has a bunch of nice examples where guitar players cut the compas in half as discussed when playing for cante (Buleria por solea examples only). Now a days the guitarist Antonio Carrion I have noticed doing it relatively frequently, but he is the only one I know of doing it. There is no rule or reason for NOT doing it in every 12 count form other than trends and taste.

So it might be considered bad taste to try to do this thing in every 12 count form other than buleria. As far as guitar solos, PDL has been heard doing it in Guajiras, Solea, Alegria (slow minor key versions that have more compas style of solea than bright up beat happy versions), and of course buleria. So I would say keep it to a minimum (if you want to remain authentic) unless it's a proper buleria you are doing.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2012 14:29:03
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo

thanks!

How common practice in bulerias is it to end the phrase on 4 and treating it like a "10"?(beginning a new compas on the following 6, making it a 12)
For example in the Juan Martin's book I could not find any mention on this, he mentioned only playing in full compas("filling in" half compas).


More importantly, what is the best way to follow the compas(feel/know on which beat is one located) when dealing with "half compases" and bulerias in general? Is counting in sixes all the time acceptable?
Does centering oneself to the downbeats of 6 and 12 make it alot easier? And when doing this is it done by counting in numbers or feeling?

Obviously things would work out much easier if going by feeling instead of counting but for now at least I don't know how to do it.

Maybe another way is learning beforehand on how many beats each phrase and falseta lasts and when playing them in improvised order, knowing by the phrase on where in compas is one located?

I have learnt some bulerias but I am having difficulties on centering myself in the compas when for example changing the order of the falsetas and phrases and not just playing a straight bulerias song from a book. thanks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2012 23:19:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

How common practice in bulerias is it to end the phrase on 4 and treating it like a "10"?(beginning a new compas on the following 6, making it a 12)


As has been discussed, VERY common. Moraito Encuentro instructional vid (Moraito has much higher credentials than J. Martin and most other flamenco teachers) he rather matter of factly shows the half compas as the ending to the cante, and claims it be a Jerez thing specifically. Indeed, his famous uncle was doing it all the time too. He then puts it into practice with the singer Terremoto Jr for just about every letra. Now that is accompaniment of cante....guitar solos can make use of it as well but I would say a little less frequently than was being demoed by Moraito, but it for sure is not only a "jerez thing" when we refer to guitar solos.

I would make an educated guess that along with the fact half compases are not done generally for solea, but for bulerias very often, again goes back to my original statement about Melchor and N. Ricardo. They were trend setters and my opinion is that it caught on in Jerez too to a greater degree with buleria, and most things "buleria" Jerezanos tend to be most proud of.

About learning...you need to develop a solid base of compas to build from...no counting, just a playing technique and pattern that you can always do until it is natural and ingrained. There is no need to even "think" half compases once you feel the symmetry of buleria, grounding your concept of head=12 or 6, tail= 4 or 10...with a special point about 3 or 9 where chord changes often occur. AFter you are well grounded you can explore the connections to solea and buleria por solea, each has their own "aire" and technical effects of strumming and time keeping and internalizing phrases due to the differences in tempo. The unbroken thread between the forms is stitched together LATER after you can execute and feel those different rhythms, by simply counting to 12. But even still the actual numbers only matter when you find yourself trying to relate your playing to a dancer's movements and choreography...and even then usually in an abstract way. IN the end it is ALWAYS about simply feeling the phrase...and until you can feel it you are not really doing it properly.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2012 13:42:52
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

About learning...you need to develop a solid base of compas to build from...no counting, just a playing technique and pattern that you can always do until it is natural and ingrained. There is no need to even "think" half compases once you feel the symmetry of buleria, grounding your concept of head=12 or 6, tail= 4 or 10...with a special point about 3 or 9 where chord changes often occur. AFter you are well grounded you can explore the connections to solea and buleria por solea, each has their own "aire" and technical effects of strumming and time keeping and internalizing phrases due to the differences in tempo. The unbroken thread between the forms is stitched together LATER after you can execute and feel those different rhythms, by simply counting to 12. But even still the actual numbers only matter when you find yourself trying to relate your playing to a dancer's movements and choreography...and even then usually in an abstract way. IN the end it is ALWAYS about simply feeling the phrase...and until you can feel it you are not really doing it properly.


Thanks.

Is there any good practices for learning to feel the compas? Maybe playing with a flamenco master for example for as long as needed? Or counting and/or analyzing the lenght of usual bulerias/solea phrases and slowly learning to feel how much and how one is required to play to keep in compas. I feel like this is the most important matter if I am really going to learn flamenco.

Also, is there any methods to learn to observe when the compas has changed in bulerias into 6 beat compas with accents on 1,2,4 and 5? I suppose this is quite often done.

There is also the other type of accenting: 12, 3, 7, 8, and 10, so how do I know if this is being used and how common is it to hear it? Or should I just ignore it for now at least?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2012 16:36:01
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

I feel like this is the most important matter if I am really going to learn flamenco.


You are correct sir!(Ed McMahon voice)
Active listening is good(counting while you listen). This is easier with the older more traditional artists. The only thing is, if you don't know your counting wrong and you keep doing it your reinforcing bad compas. In bulerias I would listen for the Bb on 3 to double check. In soela I would listen for that spelled out Emaj chord that starts on 10. I saw a sign over a door at a pena flamenca in spain that more or less said "To listen properly is the highest art."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2012 16:44:09
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

Thanks.

Is there any good practices for learning to feel the compas? Maybe playing with a flamenco master for example for as long as needed? Or counting and/or analyzing the lenght of usual bulerias/solea phrases and slowly learning to feel how much and how one is required to play to keep in compas. I feel like this is the most important matter if I am really going to learn flamenco.

Also, is there any methods to learn to observe when the compas has changed in bulerias into 6 beat compas with accents on 1,2,4 and 5? I suppose this is quite often done.

There is also the other type of accenting: 12, 3, 7, 8, and 10, so how do I know if this is being used and how common is it to hear it? Or should I just ignore it for now at least?


Any thoughts on this? thanks

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2012 17:43:49
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

quote:

Thanks.

Is there any good practices for learning to feel the compas? Maybe playing with a flamenco master for example for as long as needed? Or counting and/or analyzing the lenght of usual bulerias/solea phrases and slowly learning to feel how much and how one is required to play to keep in compas. I feel like this is the most important matter if I am really going to learn flamenco.

Also, is there any methods to learn to observe when the compas has changed in bulerias into 6 beat compas with accents on 1,2,4 and 5? I suppose this is quite often done.

There is also the other type of accenting: 12, 3, 7, 8, and 10, so how do I know if this is being used and how common is it to hear it? Or should I just ignore it for now at least?


Any thoughts on this? thanks


Don't analyze anything. You need to start listening to a a ****ton of music. And then listen some more. Just listen.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2012 18:31:04
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

Bulerias in 6 is not as common as Bulerias in 12
12, 3, 6, 8, 10 is traditional and still used a lot.
12, 3, 7, 8, 10 is a little newer but its nowadays used quite a bit, you'll hear cajon players accent those all the time (though I'm not big into flamenco with real cajones, it lacks metaphorical cajones)

Ways to look at the tradtional would be:
1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-1-2-1-2 <- I prefer this for learning.
Or
1 and a 2 and a 3 and 4 and 5 and

Forget about 6's until you don't even have to count the 12 compas, you just always feel it. More or less some years.........

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2012 18:50:20
 
Escribano

Posts: 6321
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Munin

This is why nearly everyone starts with Soleares. You will begin to feel that standard compás pretty quickly as 123-456-78-910-1112

I tend to group them like that in my head, anyway.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2012 19:15:41
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

This is why nearly everyone starts with Soleares. You will begin to feel that standard compás pretty quickly as 123-456-78-910-1112


Totally, After two years of practicing 2 or more hours a day, taking lessons and playing for a dance class, Solea is the only 12 count I don't have to count even when learning new falsetas.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2012 19:32:15
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Leñador

Thanks

quote:

Forget about 6's until you don't even have to count the 12 compas, you just always feel it. More or less some years.........


I tought there are often phrases/phases in bulerias where the palmas changes into "6 compas", is that just something a guitarist can go through by playing in 12 or is the guitarist required to more or less accent the 1,2,4 and 5?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2012 11:18:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Thanks

quote:

Forget about 6's until you don't even have to count the 12 compas, you just always feel it. More or less some years.........


I tought there are often phrases/phases in bulerias where the palmas changes into "6 compas", is that just something a guitarist can go through by playing in 12 or is the guitarist required to more or less accent the 1,2,4 and 5?

I disagree with most regarding bulerias being in 12. I teach the basic compas as a see saw of A chord to Bb chord, Bb back to A chord pretty much right from the start as two symmetrically felt groups of 6. So 6 is the foundation laid from the start of learning compas. 12 is pretty much a no brainer after you can keep the two 6's in order, and later the "concept" of half compas is also a no brainer. Palmas bulerias are always in 6's anyway, unless some one is doing them incorrectly.

Further, i dont demo solea as 12 beats either, rather keep it simple in 3's at first. As I stated the counting concept is not good for learning basic compas as it gets people all boxed in right from the start and they end up not even having a good basic groove and tempo. After you can actually play some stuff you can learn how the counting relates to dance, but first it's all about developing a vocabulary of phrasing....simple phrasing and basic time keeping and grooving.

For the enth time here I am working out a complex buleria falseta in real time....I am not thinking about 12 or 6 at all only groove and the fact I know the notes will end up making phrases that simply ARE in compas.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2012 14:22:08
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

I have to second that Ricardo.
Bulerías could be amazingly simple when you hear a lot of good cante CDs and get that groove down in two cycles of "uhm Du du Du du du".
"Forget those Numbers!" said my teacher one time to me. That was the best advice I got.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2012 14:38:37
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I disagree with most regarding bulerias being in 12. I teach the basic compas as a see saw of A chord to Bb chord, Bb back to A chord pretty much right from the start as two symmetrically felt groups of 6. So 6 is the foundation laid from the start of learning compas. 12 is pretty much a no brainer after you can keep the two 6's in order, and later the "concept" of half compas is also a no brainer. Palmas bulerias are always in 6's anyway, unless some one is doing them incorrectly.

Further, i dont demo solea as 12 beats either, rather keep it simple in 3's at first. As I stated the counting concept is not good for learning basic compas as it gets people all boxed in right from the start and they end up not even having a good basic groove and tempo.


This sounds appealing but I don't understand yet how is the accenting done if counting bulerias in two 6's and solea as four 3's?
It would certainly help me if I wouldn't have to do my basic compas learning by counting in 12's which takes too much of focus from my playing to the counting when learning to play properly in compas. Especially when mixing phrases/falsetas and doing light improvising.
I find it to be simply too many numbers. I really would like to "forget about the numbers" but I don't know if it's smart as a beginner.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2012 16:20:21
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

How bout this,

Ba ta ta Ba ta ta Ba ta Ba ta Ba ta
A---------Bb---------------------------A

Or
Like that song "I wanna live in america"
Something that's not counting but your getting your 12 beats.......anything.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 17 2012 17:05:00
 
tele

Posts: 1462
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Leñador

quote:

How bout this,

Ba ta ta Ba ta ta Ba ta Ba ta Ba ta
A---------Bb---------------------------A


Thanks, altough I find it a bit easier to concentrate on the 3 and 10.
I really would like to think in 6's but I don't know how is it done or how efficient is it for a beginner like me when playing in normal 12 compas. Ricardo?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2012 11:09:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13331
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele

quote:

This sounds appealing but I don't understand yet how is the accenting done if counting bulerias in two 6's and solea as four 3's?


As was already stated early on THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO ACCENT THE COMPAS. Did you watch the Tomatito thing I loaded? There are accents all over the place, not just 12,3,6 etc. ANd its not even in 12 if you count it out you see it ends on 4 as discussed. So don' count or get stuck doing only one accent pattern, as a beginner from the get go. There is not just one way. At risk of getting repetitive, I feel it's all been said in this thread already. You have to simply take a lesson and start learning, stop thinking so much.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 18 2012 13:14:54
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