RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats

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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

quote:

At risk of getting repetitive, I feel it's all been said in this thread already. You have to simply take a lesson and start learning, stop thinking so much.

Damn right!

Phew. . . after browsing through all this incredible technical counting stuff I'm beginning to realize why I have so many problems relating to modern flamenco. There's a hell of a lot more to the old "compas" thing than what I can remember.

But that's O.K. And incidentally, I still think Don Ramon was the greatest tocaor who ever was, and may ever be. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2012 22:17:16

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

As was already stated early on THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO ACCENT THE COMPAS. Did you watch the Tomatito thing I loaded? There are accents all over the place, not just 12,3,6 etc. ANd its not even in 12 if you count it out you see it ends on 4 as discussed. So don' count or get stuck doing only one accent pattern, as a beginner from the get go. There is not just one way. At risk of getting repetitive, I feel it's all been said in this thread already. You have to simply take a lesson and start learning, stop thinking so much.

Yeah I know there are at least three ways of accenting in bulerias (the normal, the jerez and the 6's compas), but what I am most interested to learn is what kind of accenting/counting would be most efficient when as a beginner playing falsetas and phrases in mixed/spontaneous order. Basically counting in 6's would make it easier for me to locate the end points but I wonder if there is any issue with playing normal "12 count phrases" on top of counting in sixes. So is there a place for each of these methods of accenting(so that one can use them in only certain parts) or can they be used as a general method of counting without adverse effects?

I practice alot but don't have access to a teacher who could help me out with compas so you guys have helped me alot, thanks.
With right and left hand techniques I have less issues than with applying or feeling 12 beat compas properly to my playing, especially when not playing just a straight song from a book or creating/applying own falsetas. That's why I'm trying to explore different methods.
For example I don't have problems playing tangos due to the shorter 4 beat compas which is much easier to follow. If I could somehow learn to follow the 12 beat compas with equal ease it would speed up my learning a whole lot.

Does anyone have suggestions for practicing playing in compas? For example I find playing with the flamenco master metronome to be of great help.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2012 11:45:30

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

quote:

Does anyone have suggestions for practicing playing in compas? For example I find playing with the flamenco master metronome to be of great help.

Yes FM is a great tool. I'm using it a lot.
You could set it up for the medio compas feel por bulerias.

Have a look at this thread I posted more than a year ago. Although nobody seemed to be interested in my setting, I can assure you that's the best way to digest the mezzo-compas feel

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=172179&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=flamenco%2Cmaster%2Cmedio&tmode=&smode=&s=#172179

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2012 15:05:42

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

quote:

Basically counting in 6's would make it easier for me to locate the end points but I wonder if there is any issue with playing normal "12 count phrases" on top of counting in sixes. So is there a place for each of these methods of accenting(so that one can use them in only certain parts) or can they be used as a general method of counting without adverse effects?

Jist of my point is you shouldn't be counting yet, just playing. Use a metronome, a basic click. Don't make up your own falsetas, copy the masters. 12 count lays fine over palmas in 6 of course, but it's not even that complex to think of.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2012 15:54:19

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Jist of my point is you shouldn't be counting yet, just playing.

Well I guess it's a good approach, the thing is that I find playing songs straight from a book or tab rather boring and prefer slightly more creative approach such as mixing the order of phrases/falsetas and at some point to create my own.

Do you (or anyone else) have suggestions on methods of practice(such as learning pieces for example) for a beginner like me? For now I have practiced solea, tangos and bulerias. I suppose a teacher would help but for now it's not possible.

quote:

12 count lays fine over palmas in 6 of course, but it's not even that complex to think of.

I suppose this doesn't mean that one could use the count of 6 when playing normal bulerias(of 12's compas)?

thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2012 18:34:17

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

quote:

I suppose this doesn't mean that one could use the count of 6 when playing normal bulerias(of 12's compas)?

you don't count in 6...or there is no "count of 6". if counting is done at all, it's for dance and you count 12 cuz it relates to solea...or in spanish you only count to 10 plus two beats counted as 1,2 again. if half compas is counted it is counted as 7,8,9,10,1,2....7,8,9,10,1,2...etc. but its not counted anyway...you just feel it. Many spaniards just count to 3 anyway and only to establish tempo. "un dos tre" and off you go.

I already stated beginners need to just learn compas patterns and phrases from maestros that they trust work in compas, and internalize them. Of course learning from books and scores is less than inspiring at times...cuz that's not how it's done traditionally anyway. You get the pattern and you play it, that's it. And you add to it falsetas and phrases and new patterns after you have mastered and internalized the first ones. And on forever until you have to play for a dancer and try to relate what you know how to play to their movements. Then you have to understand what 7,8,9,10 means abstractly, and even then you are relating numbers to a feeling inside. Later a dancer says cut on 4, come in on 8, 9, and 9.5 you stop.....and it is already felt cuz you know what the numbers mean.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2012 19:15:26

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to britguy)

Just to Rombsix's youtube and copy his compas variations and falsetas, he's got plenty for beginner just keep looking. Just copy it, play along, you won't even need to count.

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 19 2012 19:20:30

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Leñador)

Thanks again.

I have wondered, is there any certain pattern on which beats of the compas one should/could use the golpe or can the golpe used on any beat? Is there any rules on where/when to use it(At least in appropriate manner)?

On the matter of 6's and 12's in bulerias I found this link:
http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/articles/buleriastap.html

On the comment on Paco's video he states that Paco plays also 12 beat phrases while doing the simple three beat tapping, does this mean that one can play phrases equally even if one is tapping or counting in 6's or does the accents fall into wrong position and the two cannot be mixed? If they are interchangeable it would be easier for me to keep track of the simpler compas. Thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2012 11:43:46

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to britguy)

There's no rule for golpe's, people tend to put them on the accents for beginners to help drive the compas into their head but there's no rule about them at all.

1:30 in, golpe's on off beats.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 20 2012 16:19:39

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

About learning...you need to develop a solid base of compas to build from...no counting, just a playing technique and pattern that you can always do until it is natural and ingrained. There is no need to even "think" half compases once you feel the symmetry of buleria, grounding your concept of head=12 or 6, tail= 4 or 10...with a special point about 3 or 9 where chord changes often occur.

Any suggestions for practicing this?

I was thinking a compas program such as flamenco master would be a good starter?

For now I have learned some bulerias basics and I am starting to see that there's no point in counting while playing

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 2 2012 22:48:24

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

quote:

Any suggestions for practicing this?

I was thinking a compas program such as flamenco master would be a good starter?

For now I have learned some bulerias basics and I am starting to see that there's no point in counting while playing

OK then, any suggestions on where I can find a bulerias compas in 6's? I suppose if I want to learn ending on 4, one is a good start point

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2012 12:03:04

Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

Hola tele,

Since i decided to give a serious go on learning to play some (beginner) bulerias, this is quite an interesting topic. I am mainly busy with getting some proper compas together for Soleares and Seguiriyas till now...

Seeing all the questions you had before makes me interested in your personal experiences of your practices. What exercises did you start doing and in what order were you able to improve? Listening to which music helped you most? Any info is welcome :)

Cheers!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2012 14:08:57

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Flamencito)

Experiences of flamenco in general or bulerias?
Well my approach or should I say goal in learning flamenco is most likely different from others. As about 90% of my playing is improvisation but flamenco requires obviously lots of music that is learnt from some source. But mixing my own ideas to the studied material and creating falsetas(in compas both of course) is not as "impossible" as it seemed initially.
I am obviously a beginner but this is my road so far:

First of all I started practicing the techniques as without technique the music can't be played properly/perfectly in rhythm and detail, then I started learning the basic chord changes/or should I say the chords and rhythm that create the style that I am studying. Later on some falsetas. At this point I start to feel the need to create something of my own on the side of learning from the book. So basically I start to practice "feeling" the compas in the music and understanding the points of appropriate placement of chord changes and playing in compas in general. For this I find tangos the easiest so far and I have written almost complete piece of tangos and can manage some improvised falsetas, at this point it's most important for me to keep in compas. Other methods of slight improvisation is applying some alternative notes to the studied material, based on the scale that is played of course, for this I find (as in general improvisation) essential to know the fingerboard completely(basically all scales in all positions and location of every chromatic note (how to say this... basically knowing the position of equal note on every string)).

I know flamenco is very much about planned material but I can't play without some improvisation by myself as I can't play by feeling which is very important for my enjoyment of playing the guitar. Playing another persons song with feeling is different. Of course on the side I practice material from books or videos to understand more of elements of flamenco. Later on if I feel like it I do some slight modifications to the studied material. Just because I'm more attracted to playing more or less original music.

Now I have started practicing some bulerias and after especially watching some youtube bulerias videos(falsetas and concerts) it becomes more clear what are the building blocks for bulerias. For me it's/it was essential to first learn many variations of the A -Bb / A -Bb - C- Bb - A cycle and move to falsetas. I have noticed how it's actually not so difficult as it seems to add some own notes here or there based of course on the scale that's used. I have also written couple bulerias falsetas recently.
Obviously I'm a beginner in flamenco but I have started to notice that it really isn't as difficult/impossible as it seemed at first to play and create music that is in compas. The main study for me in flamenco is playing properly in compas by feeling and enjoying it. Therefore I have taken the approach that suits best for me which is creating own music while learning material from the book, which makes it more fun(for me it's priority to have fun and enjoy playing) and productive for my goal which is to learn to play by and with feeling. The road is long but I know I have made the right turn. Currently I'm in andalucia and I must say flamenco is one heck of a great product of the sun.

quote:

What exercises did you start doing and in what order were you able to improve? Listening to which music helped you most? Any info is welcome :)

I find pulgar and picado 1,2,3,4 type excercises very helpful, and of course some rasgueado excercises. Listening to the masters as usual... I find it rather good practice to feel/clap/beat the compas while listening to the music which is sometimes not as easy as it would seem

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 7 2012 15:36:07

Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to britguy)

Thanks Tele!

I meant your experiences specifically to bulerias, but it's very interesting to hear your experiences on flamenco in general. There are lots of similarities with my experiences so far. Especially the improvisation thing something i completely understand... I'm (like you) also mainly focused on getting together the 12 beat compas...

Luckily i was able to take some good lessons & workshops every couple of months, which finally let me be able to do some important exercises to get some compas in my system. For Soleares it now really starts to become 'more natural' and improvising some falsetas starts to somehow fit into the right places of the compas, though still on a very 'beginners level'.

Basically i am looking for some simple exercises to get the bulerias compas into my bones a bit more. Just some stuff to practise day in day out, till i don't have to think about it anymore... Specific palmas to apply while listening helped me a lot with getting a hold on the soleares compas, so those are very welcome as well..

It's great to hear you are in Andalusia now.. Just a holliday, or staying there for a while? Having a good time? I want to make my way there as well soon, but first i have to get my degree here (in Holland) done....

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2012 11:44:14

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Flamencito)

quote:

Basically i am looking for some simple exercises to get the bulerias compas into my bones a bit more. Just some stuff to practise day in day out, till i don't have to think about it anymore... Specific palmas to apply while listening helped me a lot with getting a hold on the soleares compas, so those are very welcome as well..

It's great to hear you are in Andalusia now.. Just a holliday, or staying there for a while? Having a good time? I want to make my way there as well soon, but first i have to get my degree here (in Holland) done....

Cheers

Well I'm very new to bulerias and I'm having trouble feeling 12 beat compas while playing. In this topic "6 beat compas" was discussed(such as the one paco taps on almoraima youtube vid) which (correct me if I'm wrong) fits any bulerias phrase and makes ending on count 4 a whole lot easier. And due to it's short duration it's much easier to feel or grasp than rapid slightly changing 12 beat rhythm.
Currently I have practiced only some bulerias but after a while I have started to see that it's necessary to feel the beat and pulsation of the bulerias instead of counting them. However, to learn properly ending on 10 on 4 EVERY TIME is obviously a challenge to me even when it can be also felt.
Altough of course if there is bulerias which can be played only with 12 count I have to learn it with equal importance.
Therefore I have asked in my post on this page about if there are any 6 beat compas programs/links where I can begin practicing with visual aid.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2012 12:34:06

Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

Playing bulerias is also new to me.. I'm orientating myself as much as possible, to make sure i do not practice 'wrong' things, as i have done before with Soleares. I will send my guitar teacher some stuff to review, but still that will involve some practices before...

But well there are many resources out there, and i can use the search button on this site of course... Once i get some really specific questions for myself i will probably put up a question on the foro... In the end i have this (probably too high) goal of making a submission to the winter challenge ;)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2012 20:40:45

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Flamencito)

check out encuentro study material

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2012 20:59:01

Flamencito

Posts: 334
Joined: Oct. 31 2012
From: The Netherlands

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to britguy)

Thanks Tele, i will check that out :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 9 2012 22:23:06

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to britguy)

Flamencito, the encuentro DVD's are good mostly for falsetas, but if you want to practice basic compas, vids like this are better:

Here's a great site I found for understanding and practicing compas: http://www.flamencocompas.nl/

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 11 2012 17:00:28

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

About ending phrases on 4 or 10 in bulerias:

I suppose it's normal practice to let the ending note/chord ring through the beat 11 and possibly 12?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 17 2012 13:09:59

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

Can someone explain the relation of tangos compas count number 1 (of 4) to the guitar? Does one play the chord changes at that point and is it true that the notes/chord have to be played easily/more quietly on the count 1? Thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 25 2012 16:12:31

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Can someone explain the relation of tangos compas count number 1 (of 4) to the guitar? Does one play the chord changes at that point and is it true that the notes/chord have to be played easily/more quietly on the count 1? Thanks

Depends. A basic cycle often times we only golpe on 1...special emphasis on 4, and 2 as a lesser extent. But many times we play chords on 1. Best for you is to learn some compas patterns...if you are confused where is one in a specific pattern we can tell you but you really should have a teacher.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2012 15:23:12

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

if you are confused where is one in a specific pattern we can tell you but you really should have a teacher.

I agree and I'm on it. I always thought I could do without as I've done so for 10 years with guitar but when it comes to flamenco I understand it speeds things up a whole lot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2012 22:25:37

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

Sometimes I feel like writing my own falsetas for bulerias even when it's often not what beginners do, but on the matter: When fitting them into compas is it necessary to try to accentuate or put chord changes on the accents or can the accents be done at any point more freely as long as it suits the overall tempo/feel of the bulerias?
Also when checking that everything is correctly in compas I suppose counting in sixes for checking is a good method?

I understand ending on "4" or 10 makes a bulerias in compas but what are the other factors one should consider if writing own falsetas for bulerias?

thanks again

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2013 16:24:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

Sometimes I feel like writing my own falsetas for bulerias even when it's often not what beginners do, but on the matter: When fitting them into compas is it necessary to try to accentuate or put chord changes on the accents or can the accents be done at any point more freely as long as it suits the overall tempo/feel of the bulerias?
Also when checking that everything is correctly in compas I suppose counting in sixes for checking is a good method?

I understand ending on "4" or 10 makes a bulerias in compas but what are the other factors one should consider if writing own falsetas for bulerias?

thanks again

There are so many factors, so many right and wrongs it does no good to generalize. In many cases the masters don't even know why specifically a certain phrase doesn't work, they just know something is not "right". It's not about math of beats nor accents only. You can use any concept as a base to start composing an idea, but the full proof method, the one you SHOULD follow, is to, as I said, STUDY THE MAESTROS... do what they did. Learn several and how to execute the falsetas or compas strums properly...THEN after a while you will simply "get it" how or why something of your own works or not.

Read through this topic carefully:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=206949&mpage=1&p=2&tmode=1&smode=1&key=

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2013 16:50:01

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to Ricardo)

thanks

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2013 16:53:54

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: Emphasizing compas downbeats (in reply to tele)

It's like porn, it's hard to describe but you know it when you see it ...

quote:

There are so many factors, so many right and wrongs it does no good to generalize. In many cases the masters don't even know why specifically a certain phrase doesn't work, they just know something is not "right". It's not about math of beats nor accents only. You can use any concept as a base to start composing an idea, but the full proof method, the one you SHOULD follow, is to, as I said, STUDY THE MAESTROS... do what they did. Learn several and how to execute the falsetas or compas strums properly...THEN after a while you will simply "get it" how or why something of your own works or not.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2013 17:23:24