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Question about a chord (music theory wise)   You are logged in as Guest
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rombsix

Posts: 7836
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

Question about a chord (music theory... 



I came across this chord (which I play at 0:07 - 0:08 in the above Arabic pop song cover). It is this one, relative to a capo on the first fret:

x-6-10-8-8-x

Sixth (thickest bass) string: nothing played
Fifth string: fret 6
Fourth string: fret 10
Third string: fret 8
Second string: fret 8
First (thinnest treble) string: nothing played

I looked up the chord on Guitar Pro, and it gave me these possible chord names:

Cm

D#6 (no5)

Gsus4/5+

Here are the chords of the actual song with a capo on first fret:

Intro: Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Cm, Dm7, G7sus4→G7
3ayz: C, Em, Am, Edim, Dm7, G, C
Nifsi: Fmaj7, Cmaj7, Em, Am, Edim, Dm7, G, C
3ayz: C, Em, Am, Edim, Dm7, G, C
Nifsi: Fmaj7, Cmaj7, Em, Am, Edim, Dm7, G, C
3omri: Fmaj7, Em, Dm7, G, C, Fmaj7, Em, Dm7, Fdim, C
Solo: Fmaj7, Em, Dm7, G, C, Fmaj7, Em, Dm7, Fdim, C
2olli: C, Em, Am, Edim, Dm7, G, C
Mahma: Fmaj7, Cmaj7, Em, Am, Edim, Dm7, G, C
Kol 3omr: C, Em, Am, Edim, Dm7, G, C
Mahma: Fmaj7, Cmaj7, Em, Am, Edim, Dm7, G, C
3omri: Fmaj7, Em, Dm7, G, C, Fmaj7, Em, Dm7, Fdim, C
Acoustic guitar: Fmaj7, Em, Dm7, Fdim, C

The chord in question is in larger font. Looking at the context, and using music theory, what would you say is the most appropriate name of this chord?

Cheers!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2012 22:19:54
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to rombsix

I havent listened yet but the chord voicing sugests D#6 (no5).

If I were you I wouldnt bother with chord names. The important thing is what the name of the chord means to you, in other words, that the name of the chord makes you play the right notes.

Keep the aural analysis to roman numerals, it makes everything clearer (beacause they are relative) than chord names.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2012 22:43:33
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to rombsix

well from a jazz point of view i straight away see the bass line moving in 5ths which is very normal , which means that the chord in question would be a substitute for an A min chord to have the bass line continue am E..A .D...G... line
so the chord would be a straight foward AM7 b5 (Aminor 7th flat 5) another normal chord , or chord 7 of any major scale ,.
Excetp it doesnt have the root note , but it still be implied......

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2012 22:43:46
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Sr. Martins

Ok, now Ive heard it. To me its just a passing chord between F and Eb so I would call it E6. Well, D#6 according to the chords you posted.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2012 22:51:57
 
Haydn

 

Posts: 59
Joined: Jan. 29 2011
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to rombsix

I would call it a Dsharp6. The first reason is that it implies the fingering. The second would be that it can be thought of as a chromatic passing chord, moving from Em7 to Dm7. To me, this is what is implied by the harmony.

The key seems to be C major (for the most part), so I would hesitate to call it Cminor.
Gsus4/5+ could work also, as the root note fits the key. However, Dsharp would be my best bet, simply because it makes more sense provided that the bassline follows the bass notes of the guitar (if not, you can probably find the answer there).

Hope this was of some help
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 7 2012 23:00:26
 
beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to rombsix

Hey Ramzi,
then it's
6th string: x
5th:d#
4th:c
3th:d#
2nd:g
1th:x
do I get it right?
so we got a C(root) a G(5th) and a D#(9+)
so if we're in the key of C why would I call this D# or whatever? I'd simply think of it as C9+ (that misses it's 3rd.)
The thing that causes the confusion here is that it's an inversion having the 9+ on top of it as a bass note.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 6:34:20
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to rombsix

Eb - sixth substituting for fifth (for color)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 8:57:04
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to beno

Although there are many ways to interpret it and the key is C, I would never consider that chord to be a C unless it had a tonic function, which it clearly doesnt.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 10:49:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to rombsix

Very simply put, after lots of jibber jabber, you have a simple Cm chord in first inversion. Proper chart name is Cm/Eb. key of song is C. It's a no brainer. Cm->Dm->G is a type of iv-v-i borrowed from minor.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 16:19:33
 
Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Very simply put, after lots of jibber jabber, you have a simple Cm chord in first inversion. Proper chart name is Cm/Eb. key of song is C. It's a no brainer. Cm->Dm->G is a type of iv-v-i borrowed from minor.

Exactly.

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Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 16:34:44
 
rombsix

Posts: 7836
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks mates.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 17:14:16
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Ricardo

Yeah...Em-Cm-Dm makes sense. lol

You can clearly hear that that is a passing chord with a bass line that moves e-eb-d. Weren't you the one espousing context. Cm does not fit in this context whereas a II-i in Dm does. In fact, he even cadences on Dm by pausing-not a strong cadence, just enough to say "I am ending on Dm." Then ii-V-I in C (Dm-G-C) to really bring the tonic home.

I don't have time to post examples but it is found a lot in classical and jazz. Again, NEAPOLITAN to temporary goal within the overall context of C. You can also think of family...One alteration on the Eb family would make this a local aug 6th chord. You could do this by subbing C# for C. Then you could really hear how this chord and family are meant to FUNCTION. Try Eb-G-C#-G. The augmented sixth wants to resolve outward to the octave: Eb-D and C#-D.

People, don't take my word for it, NOR RICARDO's EITHER. Go out and listen for examples and read Mark Levine's Jazz Theory, Aldwell and Schacter's Harmony and Voice-Leading, and Kostka and Payne's Tonal Harmony.

THAT IS NOT A Cm CHORD unless you isolate it. CONTEXT and FUNCTION "jibber jabber, jibber jabber."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 17:23:59
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Kevin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin

Yeah...Em-Cm-Dm makes sense. lol

You can clearly hear that that is a passing chord with a bass line that moves e-eb-d. Weren't you the one espousing context. Cm does not fit in this context whereas a II-i in Dm does. In fact, he even cadences on Dm by pausing-not a strong cadence, just enough to say "I am ending on Dm." Then ii-V-I in C (Dm-G-C) to really bring the tonic home.

I don't have time to post examples but it is found a lot in classical and jazz. Again, NEAPOLITAN to temporary goal within the overall context of C. You can also think of family...One alteration on the Eb family would make this a local aug 6th chord. You could do this by subbing C# for C. Then you could really hear how this chord and family are meant to FUNCTION. Try Eb-G-C#-G. The augmented sixth wants to resolve outward to the octave: Eb-D and C#-D.

People, don't take my word for it, NOR RICARDO's EITHER. Go out and listen for examples and read Mark Levine's Jazz Theory, Aldwell and Schacter's Harmony and Voice-Leading, and Kostka and Payne's Tonal Harmony.

THAT IS NOT A Cm CHORD unless you isolate it. CONTEXT and FUNCTION "jibber jabber, jibber jabber."


Wow dude, you want to alter the chord and all that fine. The reality is this is NOT jazz, it is a pop tune. Cm-Em has been known to happen LOL. Simple chord, simple spelling and voicing, simple context. Not sure the big deal here. JUst because a bass line moves a certain way doesn't mean you must name a chord something it isnt. The chord is a freaking Cminor chord, Eb is the bass, C is the root. Simple. Em was the chord before it. Cmaj7 contains the eminor triad. Cmaj-Cm -G is a super common pop move in G. The composer simply altered the idea by going from Em-Cm-then Dm....finally G and even the G is suspended. It's all pretty normal pop movement. Alterations ala jazz extensions or subs work great, but don't change the idea of what a simple triad spells.

Eb6 is not the same as a Cm/Eb chord. Eb6 IS the same as Cm7/Eb. We don't have that in this example. Its pretty simple to me. You can play a different voicing for any of the chords in Ramzi's intro chart (Cmaj7-Dm7-Em7-Cm-Dm7-Gsus-G7) without changing the song vibe at all.

Here is analysis: I,ii, iii, iv/V, ii (v/V), V, I.

jazz approach could be C lydian or ionian, D dorian, E dorian or natual phrygian, C dorian, D dorian, G mixo. C dorian implies the Cm chord borrows from G minor.

I would welcome neopolitian if we heard say a Bbmaj chord moving to Am, or Dbmaj chord movinog to C, and augmented 6 if we have any Ab7 type chord...in the context of this simple C major key tune.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 17:34:13
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1901
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Ricardo

you guys go on about this, yet there no mention of the F chord which would naturally follow in my humble opinion, and i know next to nothing about theories...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 17:47:15
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ

you guys go on about this, yet there no mention of the F chord which would naturally follow in my humble opinion, and i know next to nothing about theories...

We focus on intro only. In that case we have ii-V-I NOT IV-V-I...in other words the Fmaj triad is already contained in the more colorful Dm7. Make sense? So your right that it is sort of part of the picture.

My reference of iv-v-i was that the iv chord is borrowed from key of G....that suspended G chord being the goal of the weird chord move before it.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 17:50:29
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Ricardo

Eb - sixth substituting for fifth (for color)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 18:06:09
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Cm->Dm->G is a type of iv-v-i


well it is a Cmin inversion but the and thats what it was listed as one the first line ....
the only problem with your no brainer minor cadence is that you have ended on a g calling it i ..but it is marked as G7 (sus) which is the dominant chord and not the i of anything , , but the V of C min ( or Maj)

also as extra info , that you dont need ,
Another specific, but rarer, type of half cadence is a phrygian half cadence (iv6 - V) was popular during the Baroque period. Phrygian Half Cadences only occur in minor keys, and must consist of a first inversion iv chord that resolves to a root position V or V7 chord. It refers to a common type of cadence that was used in music written in the phrygian mode, but was later frequently used to end the slow middle movement of a concerto, when the composer wished for the final movement to begin without an extended break. The second movement of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 is perhaps one of the shortest complete movements in the literature, and consists only of a phrygian cadence.

Maybe of interest to some ....
But yeah this kind of stuff can go on a bit if you let it .... "jibber jabber, jibber jabber."


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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 18:08:41
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to El Kiko

Eb - sixth substituting for fifth (for color)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 18:20:40
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1901
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Kevin

"As for F, although it is contained in the Dm7 I don't talk about it because it's not there. It's like saying, "What about the Bdim, surely that could occur somewhere."

you're probably right from the theoretician's point of view, but for me, as a guitarist who plays pop music as well, the next logical chord would be F7, and i also only listened to these four chords...so i find it difficult to understand why the idea is being dismissed in such manner...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 19:13:36
 
Estevan

Posts: 1938
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

The second movement of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No. 2 is perhaps one of the shortest complete movements in the literature, and consists only of a phrygian cadence.

No it's not, and it doesn't. But you could say all that about the slow movement of No. 3.

Here it is (all the notes) transcribed for guitar:

5__7
5__7
5__8
X__9
7__9
8__7

It's just Bach's shorthand for "Improvise something in E minor, and end with this." Then the next movement is in G major.

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Me da igual. La música es música.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 19:14:19
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ

Take out the Eb chord and you have
CM7--Dm7--Em7--Dm7.......G7(sus4 to major third) and back to the tonic.

There is absolutely no reason to go there unless the composer wishes and in this case he didn't. At any rate, although pop tunes do use IV-V-I frequently, this ii-V-I is used probably as often. Where exactly do you think an F should occur next?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 19:39:54
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1901
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Kevin

naturally it doesnt have to occur, i was assuming that this chord, Cm/Eb or Eb6, whatever is a substitution for a possible F7 which could follow as the fourth chord after Cmaj7, Dm and Em...

of course, it makes no sense to argue as i have little knowledge about this, it would just make sense from my point of view, at least mentioning a possible F chord there...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 19:44:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Kevin

quote:

You can't escape that Eb and there are a limited number of chords that use it as a passing chord from Em-Dm. Almost all of them are directly related to my idea of Neapolitan not Cm/Eb. Even if we substituted the tritone chord

Um...you can't escape the G or C either LOL!!!! Yet you continue to focus only on Eb and do exactly that by offering up all sorts of subs. Great. With subs you are correct....but there arent any!!!! It's C-Eb-G pretty simple. And you can have seemingly infinate types of chords that will contain and Eb and while some will sound worse than others, there is no rule that says a limited set MUST sandwich between Em and Dm. That's just how it is....again this ain't Baroque OR Albeniz OR jazz guys. Sheeeeesh. Brandanberg???? Historical context??? give me a break please. Any chord can go before any other chord in modern pop and several other styles as well. The only similarity here is a chromatic bass line is used...yet why analyize simply THAT based on other music genres????? makes no sense at all.

To Rico iv-v-i borrows from G minor key as if to pull to tonic or tonicizing G. Tonicizing the 5th of the key the song is in, but borrowing from parallel minor. As opposed to parallel minor borrowing from the the key the song is IN which would mean no Dm7, Ab would be needed. Again my simple analysis based on info given NOT possiblities based on invisible notes or substitutions not present.

At xirdneh imij ..... got you, you are correct that an idea would be to continue up the chord scale Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7. But an alternate view, since the Cm does NOT move directly to G (in which case I would agree with your assesment it subs Fmaj7 in chord scale) would be this ionian vamp: Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Dm7 Cmaj7 etc.....no subing needed the point was to return to Dm7 and is closer to what happens in the intro. But the weird chord takes us out of modal ionian realm into more colorful tonal progression that begs resolution .... pulling us stronger or more desireably to G which will make the tune happily resolve to C.

I agree with Kevin that it is important to analyize only what is here (there is no Fmaj, Eb anything need not be a sub for it, only a passing toward Dm, since Fmaj7-dm7 is nothing logical in the chord scale sequence anyway) .... but wish he would take his own advice with his OVER analysis.

About laughing at the movement "Em-Cm-Dm-G" as a legit "progression"....what if they were all Major 7 chords Emaj7-Cmaj7-Dmaj7-Gmag7??? STill something to laugh at? Now transpose up a 4th...Amaj7-Fmaj7-Gmaj7-Dmaj7....analyze that....now look at 3:53-3:56 .... "lol" all you want.


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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 20:22:09
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Ricardo

Eb - sixth substituting for fifth (for color)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 20:59:18
 
Kevin

 

Posts: 294
Joined: Sep. 7 2008
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Ricardo

BUAHAHAHAHA.
You really gonna compare the progression in minor with the progression in major. F- bro.

Where do I start? In the minor progression the third of the "Cm" (Eb) is functioning as a chromatic passing tone between two chords. In your major example there is no chromatic passing tone from EM7 to DM7. CM7 contains E as its third and there is therefor no note to use to pass. Nice chords and progression but a bit different in feel and function.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 21:07:36
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Kevin

+1 for Venutian 13!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 21:18:07
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Kevin

quote:

You still don't account for the "half cadence" on Dm.

Don't need to as I never said it was half cadence at all, rather it borrows from the key of Gm, and more specifically from the G Aeolian chord scale. Hence I analyzed the Dm with two names v/v (not a proper candence at all for a minor key, rather more like a modal implication of aeolian) and also ii, which is what it truly is in context. IF the chord before Dm were actually an Eb chord (triad, full 6th, 7th or dom7th 9th I don't care) AND you resolve to Dm then sure you could say neo ii FROM D minor, and analyze like this: I-ii-iii-[N2/ii?]-ii-V7sus-V7. You are tonicizing ii with a neopolitan 2nd or tritone subing V7/ii with a neo 2nd. I accept both ideas...but sorry it AINT AN Eb CHORD its a Cminor TRIAD...plus it isn't classical music so the entire concept of Roman numerating chords is arbitrary due to the allowance of modal borrowing. It was never meant to be so complex as that.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 21:36:43
 
Haydn

 

Posts: 59
Joined: Jan. 29 2011
 

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to rombsix

This is the problem with theory: so many schools of thought, and no particular one is the "right" one. Jazz, classical, whatever. Points of view at best. You say tomato.... no?
Of the two points of view in this thread, both have their merits. But it's worth considering the composer of this tune just whacked that chord in there without considering its name or function theoretically.

In the end, if people understand what you're describing, is it worth getting into a heated debate over?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 21:38:02
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to rombsix

sorry to disturbe your theory class but,

OLÈ PACO!!!!!!!

thank you Ricardo for that clip, it
made my evening. I forgot about that consert. it will be my breakfast entertainment for shure.

good night music lovers

/Henrik

_____________________________

This is hard stuff!
Don't give up...
And don't make it a race.
Enjoy the ray of sunshine that comes with every new step in knowledge.

RON
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 21:49:17
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1901
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Question about a chord (music th... (in reply to Haydn

it would really make my day if you guys started analyzing my pieces, why certain things happen, why i choose the chord - and then i would just say because it sounded good
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 8 2012 21:54:45
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