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Christianos

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Apr. 25 2012
 

arpeggios 

Help!
Hi there can anybody shed some light on this subject?I would like to know how
do you get those fast arpeggios say like on a granadinas at the beginning.The arpeggios im onabout are the ones that are descending ima ones.I try to do it fast obviously starting slow at first and gradually gathering momentum but im finding my nails seem to scrape across those strings why is this?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 26 2012 18:48:06
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

quote:

Help!
Hi there can anybody shed some light on this subject?I would like to know how
do you get those fast arpeggios say like on a granadinas at the beginning.The arpeggios im onabout are the ones that are descending ima ones.I try to do it fast obviously starting slow at first and gradually gathering momentum but im finding my nails seem to scrape across those strings why is this?


"Descending IMA?" If you're descending with IMA it's no wonder you're having trouble. You need to descend with AMI. But maybe you meant that. In any case you answered the question yourself. You have to practice them very slowly at first, articulating each note fully and clearly. Don't even attempt to increase the tempo. Just keep doing it slowly but correctly, and eventually speed will come without even trying to increase the tempo gradually.

Ramon

_____________________________

Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2012 13:55:31
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

You have work on planting the fingers and feel secure a moment before
you pluck the note.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2012 14:00:50
 
Christianos

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Apr. 25 2012
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Ramon Amira

thanks for getting back to me i did mean ami wrote it wrong i expect its that old sayin "Dont run before you can walk" Ive been playing for four years just thought i might have sussed it by now
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2012 12:02:44
 
DavidW

 

Posts: 5
Joined: Apr. 29 2012
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

I found this lesson useful for correcting my technique, especially the discussion of descending arpeggios at 4:30:

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 30 2012 0:01:05
 
Christianos

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Apr. 25 2012
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

Cheers for that David i think thats really gonna help me its all about the plant by the sounds of things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2012 22:26:19
 
pensoso

 

Posts: 26
Joined: Aug. 20 2010
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

Check out link below: Adam's explanation are really really good (IMO)

Cheers!



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2012 22:34:04
 
NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

I'm actually really glad this thread came up. I find there is quite a bit of conflicting information out there on the web regarding this.

This Del Monte fellow and Grisha both suggest planting your finger so that the string is right in the little gap between the flesh and the nail because it's more efficient. Maybe a year ago I found that as I was practicing arpeggio (and picado for that matter) my plant was getting closer and closer to this gap. Therefore this seemed a very natural way to gain speed and efficiency since you're not sliding over the flesh.

However, when I had a chance to take some lessons with an experienced teacher in Vancouver, one of the things he told me was that my sound was "too naily" (his words) and that I should use some flesh when playing. Funnily enough, Gerardo Nunez also recommends this in his Encuentro video. My Spanish isn't very good but as I recall he demonstrates all 3 ways, playing only with the nail, only with the flesh and claiming that both is the correct way.

I've been working really hard to get myself to unlearn the bad habits from earlier and I still sometimes find my plant crawls its way towards the string (there being less and less contact with the flesh). I must say it can get pretty frustrating playing things one way because you heard it from a reliable source only to have another reliable source contradict the advice.

Based on having played things both ways for some time I think using the flesh and nail sounds better but using only the nail is best for achieving speed. I find with the flesh you also get a bit more of that "gypsy" sound when you play while with the nail it sounds thinner although not always in a bad way (as the above video demonstrates).

Do any more players want to chime in on this issue? Ricardo I'm looking at you
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2012 4:13:27

ToddK

 

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

quote:

I find there is quite a bit of conflicting information out there on the web regarding this.


This is obviously because the taper of the nail and fingertip varies
from person to person. There's no one correct way.

It depends on the sound you're going for.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2012 4:52:55
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggios (in reply to NenadK

quote:

ORIGINAL: NenadK

I'm actually really glad this thread came up. I find there is quite a bit of conflicting information out there on the web regarding this.

This Del Monte fellow and Grisha both suggest planting your finger so that the string is right in the little gap between the flesh and the nail because it's more efficient. Maybe a year ago I found that as I was practicing arpeggio (and picado for that matter) my plant was getting closer and closer to this gap. Therefore this seemed a very natural way to gain speed and efficiency since you're not sliding over the flesh.

However, when I had a chance to take some lessons with an experienced teacher in Vancouver, one of the things he told me was that my sound was "too naily" (his words) and that I should use some flesh when playing. Funnily enough, Gerardo Nunez also recommends this in his Encuentro video. My Spanish isn't very good but as I recall he demonstrates all 3 ways, playing only with the nail, only with the flesh and claiming that both is the correct way.

I've been working really hard to get myself to unlearn the bad habits from earlier and I still sometimes find my plant crawls its way towards the string (there being less and less contact with the flesh). I must say it can get pretty frustrating playing things one way because you heard it from a reliable source only to have another reliable source contradict the advice.

Based on having played things both ways for some time I think using the flesh and nail sounds better but using only the nail is best for achieving speed. I find with the flesh you also get a bit more of that "gypsy" sound when you play while with the nail it sounds thinner although not always in a bad way (as the above video demonstrates).

Do any more players want to chime in on this issue? Ricardo I'm looking at you


I think folks read too much into this cuz this came up with Del Monte before. He says "no flesh" but what he means is you don't start in the middle of your finger tip and slide into the nail because that makes your skin ball up at the tip and then when the string finally releases you only catch the tip of the nail for a thin sound. He wants that you get only the skin that is right UNDER the nail but of course you have to touch skin, not ONLY nail. Nuñez demos thumb with this regard, it's a little different because in flamenco we want the "click" of the string sliding from the skin into the nail. We tend to have a longer thumb nail then fingers for this reason as well.

In some cases when playing arps or any thing with fingers and thumb together, we play sideways with thumb and infact get little or NO nail because of the angle and that is ok sometimes in flamenco too. The only thing about Del Monte is his "range of tone colors" idea, while it is correct as he demos, it is totally a classical sounding thing. That being, it is more flamenco to get the BRIGHTER sounding arps, where the fingers are more curved. The other type of arp straighter fingers for sure is warmer and also more classical guitar sounding IMO. Flamenco players tend not to be into "tone colors" as the multitude of techniques achieve the range of colors flamenco sound requires.

For the record, many flamenco players use vasoline or other petrolium on the RH finger tips for the reason that getting too much flesh for arps is a non issue because the greases forces a slippery slide right into the optimal PLANT position for good tone. So you don't have to be so accurate with arps when going fast to get a good grip on the string.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2012 12:20:15
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

I am trying to hijack this thread, but, I have a question...

I know I can use some help an arps., one thing that still isn't clear to me is when picking chords...

Should the fingers ALWAYS be on the strings when picking??

If I picked in this order a, m, i does the next finger m have to already be planted on the string or can it just kind of be away until actually picking the string?

I hope this made sense...

Good thread by the way!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2012 16:16:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Kalo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kalo

I am trying to hijack this thread, but, I have a question...

I know I can use some help an arps., one thing that still isn't clear to me is when picking chords...

Should the fingers ALWAYS be on the strings when picking??

If I picked in this order a, m, i does the next finger m have to already be planted on the string or can it just kind of be away until actually picking the string?

I hope this made sense...

Good thread by the way!

Kalo

Good question. the difference of terms is between a FULL PLANT (fingers already on strings) or a SEQUENTIAL PLANT (one finger at a time while others hang in the air). Most typical in flamenco is to do a full plant for ima, but always a sequential plant for ami. I have not seen a player to full plants for ami, but I have seen players in flamenco do ami apoyando (Vicente Amigo). Gerardo Nuñez does sequential plant for ALL arpegio, including ima patterns.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2012 19:39:48
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

quote:

Good question. the difference of terms is between a FULL PLANT (fingers already on strings) or a SEQUENTIAL PLANT (one finger at a time while others hang in the air). Most typical in flamenco is to do a full plant for ima, but always a sequential plant for ami. I have not seen a player to full plants for ami, but I have seen players in flamenco do ami apoyando (Vicente Amigo). Gerardo Nuñez does sequential plant for ALL arpegio, including ima patterns.


THANKS RICARDO!!!! This has cleared up things for me lots. I don't think this topic is discussed enough. Simply, here practice apreggios isn't enough...

I guess practice slowly is the keep...I am having trouble doing arps. FAST!!!

Kalo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2012 20:35:28
 
Kalo

 

Posts: 400
Joined: Jan. 25 2011
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

I don't know who this guy is...

But, what do you think of this explanation...

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2012 20:44:02
 
NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I think folks read too much into this cuz this came up with Del Monte before. He says "no flesh" but what he means is you don't start in the middle of your finger tip and slide into the nail because that makes your skin ball up at the tip and then when the string finally releases you only catch the tip of the nail for a thin sound. He wants that you get only the skin that is right UNDER the nail but of course you have to touch skin, not ONLY nail. Nuñez demos thumb with this regard, it's a little different because in flamenco we want the "click" of the string sliding from the skin into the nail. We tend to have a longer thumb nail then fingers for this reason as well.

For the record, many flamenco players use vasoline or other petrolium on the RH finger tips for the reason that getting too much flesh for arps is a non issue because the greases forces a slippery slide right into the optimal PLANT position for good tone. So you don't have to be so accurate with arps when going fast to get a good grip on the string.


Thanks for the clarification but I must say I'm still kind of confused. My old teacher gave the exact opposite instructions saying that you want to pluck with the flesh grazing the nail on the way. Of course, I'm sure he didn't mean barely grazing the nail and getting the thin sound. As a result I've actually been practicing arpeggios with a VERY deep plant. The string is significantly past the center of the fingertip toward the palm. Mind you, I've been getting a pretty good sound. My nails are about even with the fingertip which makes them long enough to still catch quite well and get a good sound as opposed to the thin sound Del Monte is talking about.

I guess what this comes down to is where exactly do you plant before plucking? When you plant, is your nail already in contact with the string (this was how I used to play and was told not to)? Or is the string only touching the flesh but between the center of the fingertip and the nail (to reduce the "balling up")?

Also, do you plant exactly the same way for picado and tremolo as well?

Sorry to be persistent with these questions I've just kind of been in limbo lately regarding this and I want to make damn sure I get it right this time. I really appreciate the help.

Nenad
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2012 0:29:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggios (in reply to NenadK

Odd advice, perhaps you misunderstood the old teacher? For sure the ideal plant is touching both skin and nail at exact same moment (except thumb where it's ok to hit skin first) for ALL techniques.....it's hard to do hence the grease I described used by many flamencos and classical players too. Planting skin then sliding into nail always will for sure cause a delay and mute the sound of each planted string longer.

Only thing makes sense to me if if the teacher had you do this to exaggerate planting because before you were catching only nails when playing?

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 3 2012 12:27:59
 
NenadK

Posts: 137
Joined: Jun. 6 2010
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Odd advice, perhaps you misunderstood the old teacher? For sure the ideal plant is touching both skin and nail at exact same moment (except thumb where it's ok to hit skin first) for ALL techniques.....it's hard to do hence the grease I described used by many flamencos and classical players too. Planting skin then sliding into nail always will for sure cause a delay and mute the sound of each planted string longer.

Only thing makes sense to me if if the teacher had you do this to exaggerate planting because before you were catching only nails when playing?


I'm sure I didn't misunderstand him. He even told me to get rid of my nails completely for the time being. I think I've heard this advice elsewhere as well.

Ah well now at least I know what the way to go is. I just wish I hadn't stopped practicing that way.

Thanks for all your help. You're a lifesaver.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2012 0:02:16
 
Johnc

Posts: 114
Joined: Apr. 16 2011
From: UK

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

Thanks to everyone for this :)
I am very new to playing and this has really helped me.

could you tell me is the planting for pimi arpeggios the same?

Thanks again

John
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2012 10:58:12
 
Christianos

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Apr. 25 2012
 

Tennis elbow caused by flamenco guitar (in reply to Christianos

Help !!!
Has anybody had the dreaded tennis elbow syndrome from playing flamenco ? Not sure if i got it from day job or me practising rasqueados and alzapua !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2012 21:19:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tennis elbow caused by flamenco ... (in reply to Christianos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Christianos

Help !!!
Has anybody had the dreaded tennis elbow syndrome from playing flamenco ? Not sure if i got it from day job or me practising rasqueados and alzapua !


Probably a combo of both. I would be careful with supporting and relaxing your arms at work. Likewise, learn to do restrukes with the thumb and keep it down on the string or soundboad so you support your hand when doing arps. At the same time you have this support, learn to relax your arm from the elbow down, and even from shoulder. IF you forget after time and feel some tension stop and give a rest for a while.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2012 14:06:48
 
Christianos

 

Posts: 9
Joined: Apr. 25 2012
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

Thanks Ricardo thats some sound advice youve given i def try it,apparently tennis elbow occurrs in people over forty that will be me then wishing i played flamenco when i was a kid not blumin blues rock arrrrrgh!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2012 17:19:47
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

Resting your thumb will in the same time induce contraction of the thumbs base flexor, which again will then be in the way of the fingers flexors.
Though the blocking effect can more or less be overcome ( depending on the habitual measure of thumb base muscle contraction), it won´t be a recipe for most effortless execution.

Instead of anchoring your hand try resting your lower arm in a way that will allow your hand to pend before the soundhole.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2012 18:45:31
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Resting your thumb will in the same time induce contraction of the thumbs base flexor, which again will then be in the way of the fingers flexors.


Perhaps I see your point if you play with thumb inside the hand with fingers extended, but most flamencos have the thumb way out to the side toward sound hole with fingers curved, when doing arps. The stability afforded by this stance, IMO outways any minimal blockage of the flexors vs having to stabalize the arm via suspending from the elbow, or affecting the angle of attack (depending on arm size) by resting arm on body of guitar. Anyway, any such resting of the arm is done in conjunction with the resting thumb which aids the stability.

Perhaps the idea of doing a rest stroke with thumb is the problem as I see students trying hard to get the best pulgar with nail sound, when in fact playing over the sound hole (to accomodate the optimal arpegio position for fingers) we need not get the normal bright naily sound as when only doing pulgar strokes, as we play much more on the fleshy side of the thumb. It need not involve either such a powerful contraction of bass flexor as you say, as we simply "fall" from one string down to another.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2012 15:25:04
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 651
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

need some help

Dont have much time to study , discipline , patience and will to get into the tradicional stuff (the many genres).
So i prefer to enjoy myself with the lack of time that i have (sometimes i go to the electric) and play whatever i want and like.
Play many different stuff , but with my nylon string i prefer songs like Vicente´s style , so i trying to compose melodys like , way more simple of course :)
So i enjoy more the sound and the melody and felling.
Will work on some rasgeos to complete the style.

Sometimes i get stuck to connect some arpeggios chords in my composing , the first and second chord are normally easy and the chorus. But difficult in arrange the 3rd and 4th chord to connect all.
Any tips?
Any beatufil chords around that can sound great in Vicente style melody ? or contemp. flamenco ?

im also stuck in artists , in the genre i only know vicente , antonio r , some tomatito stuff , if you know more in the genre (melody+arpeggio+jazz+modern) i apreciate also.

thanks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 28 2023 17:05:04
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1602
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Manitas de Lata

I'm not familiar with Vicente style melody. I haven't listened to his solo stuff yet. Been busy listening to good traditional flamenco. But one question for you can you play exactly what you're humming?

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2023 0:40:18
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 651
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to devilhand

i also listen to tradicional.. last aquisition was a "PEPE ROMERO LIVING PRESENCE" from Mercury live presence (1966) CD , the playing is so good... and the quality of the recording is perfect..doesnt say that its a Remaster ...
one of the best albums , only spent 3 euros.... eheh
Heres one from the CD


can you repeat the question? didnt understand
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2023 9:35:31
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 651
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Christianos

heres one from many Vicente Amigo songs , all the songs have distint melody but allways work as his signature , beatiful melody ..

This album is great...

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2023 10:16:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Manitas de Lata

quote:

Sometimes i get stuck to connect some arpeggios chords in my composing , the first and second chord are normally easy and the chorus. But difficult in arrange the 3rd and 4th chord to connect all.


Start with a melody only, then it is already “connected” assuming you like the melody structure. Then experiment with various chord options under the melodic note (or above it if the melody is a bass line). Don’t limit yourself to only chord tones. Vicente likes suspensions for example (a second, 4th, or 6th, that resolves soon after).

To be honest, learning older falsetas from the traditional maestros teaches you how to do this for each palo. Vicente creates ON TOP of the old tradition patterns. He also accompanies the cante very well (check El Pele and Jose Merce), which is a discipline that teaches you to track the melody by ear, and create the chord structure underneath IN THE MOMENT, driven by rhythm or phrasing. Basically the skill of creation you are lacking is this exact thing, and you won’t be able to achieve what Vicente is doing by random creation alone, because that first step I mentioned (create your melody FIRST), is no small task. For example:



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2023 11:49:52
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 651
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Ricardo

i think you re right , deep inside i was afraid of that :)
Had to start somehow ...

Have some tips on how to make the process or the learning more fun? maybe with some BPM Clap?
Repetition is also no easy task , if we repeat a song that we like and its achievable it can be fun... but repeat tecnique is very hard and energy consuming

Ps: never saw Camaron with Vicente , only tomatito , paco , by the way , Vicente with huge mullet
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2023 13:15:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14818
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: arpeggios (in reply to Manitas de Lata

Yes exercises are tedious. To learn quick from the traditional repertoire, find a source FALSETA and Compás pattern or 2 for a palo chosen to taste. Attack learning a falseta in the following manner to save on time:



That is me learning in real time via a request to demo how I learn and master falsetas quickly (I did not know how to play it at the start of the video). I am going of a transcription/video source by Encuentro. Today there are too many free sources on YouTube to do this with.

Anyway, after you collect a moderate sized bag of selected falsetas from various maestros whose toque you enjoy, you can tip toe into creating your own things based on the ideas you have learned from those. In combo, you can approach cante (if no singer is nearby) via our accompaniment thread that has cante minus guitar you can supply yourself…at least as a starting point.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=124692&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

There is enough material in there to spend years working on it while developing your playing with falsetas.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 29 2023 13:50:24
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