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C#Phrygian - ?????   You are logged in as Guest
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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

C#Phrygian - ????? 

I recently read some reference to guitarists playing certain flamenco forms in the; "C#Phrygian" mode, and how it enabled really interesting dissonant harmonies and discords, etc.

I'd never heard of this mode before?

I can't remember where I saw this; I think it may have been in the local library, but its bugging me that I cant remember what it said.

Can anyone enlighten me about this C#Phrygian mode, what forms it is used for, etc. etc.

Are there any TABS/videos, etc. available showing examples of these 'interesting' harmonies?

Always curious. . . .

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2012 22:23:25
 
rombsix

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From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

I reckon if you play the same box position as the E phrygian mode on the first position but rather on the ninth position, you should get C# phrygian, right?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2012 22:28:33
Guest

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

C# phygian relates to the key of A major [very guitar friendly key]
or F# harmonic [or natural] minor starting on the fifth degree or por medio with capo on 4[pitch wise]
chords are
C#7 [b9] D9 [#11] E9 Fdim F#m G#dim A[maj7] Bm[7] and extensions there of
or think granina key up a tone [2 frets]

Miguel Angel cortes has quite a bit of material on his encuentro video

it can be used for any palo that has por medio or por arriba sounds..
it provides a different color as the use of open strings opens many possibilities...
sure someone else here will either elaborate/contradict this info...will try to find some examples when time permits
Sure Ricardo or Aloysius would be a wealth of knowledge on this topic

let me know if you want me to upload a video showing basic chord voicings or scale positions

quote:

ninth position, you should get C# phrygian, right?


or


------------------------------4-5-7-9------------4----------1----
--------------------------6-7---------------------6----------2------
-------------------4-6-7------------------------- 7----------1-------
-------[3]-4-6-7---------------------------------6----------0-------
4-5-7-8------------------------------------------4----------4------
----------------------------------------------------x----------x------

there would be many other fingerings to get this scale [or any other] depending on how much time you have... which why i think its a good idea to look at the actual notes your playing...play the notes off each of the chord voicings and there you should get at least 7 different ways of playing the same scale

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2012 22:59:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14627
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

The first I know of was Niño Miguel vals buleria. Same key as Rondeña, but standard tuning.

Later PDL used it to accomp camaron with tomatito playing capo 4 on Vivire....but the best of PDL in this key is "Soniquete" opening track on Zyrab. He plays a lot of this piece live in concert now in his buleria solo, he modulates to that key from A major about 5 minutes in or so.

Some other exemplary pieces are Vicente Amigo's Mandaito, and some famous falsetas such as these two I am playing below:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2012 23:35:57
Guest

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Same key as Rondeña, but standard tuning.

epiphany...thanks so much for making the penny drop...that has really helped.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2012 23:47:43
 
NormanKliman

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RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

I like to think that C# and D# phrygian are the latest additions to the set of "natural" keys (don't require retuning) used in flamenco guitar because most professionals around 40 years of age or younger know how to use them in several different styles. Typically, C# is used for bulerías and D# for toques levantinos (malagueñas, tarantas, granaínas, etc.) Spaniards call these keys "al cuatro" and "al seis," respectively, because a convenient chord shape for the tonic is a partial barre at the fourth and sixth frets (second, third and fourth string, like moving an A major chord up from the second fret).

I should make it clear that I'm talking about accompaniment as well as solo guitar. I once saw "al seis" used on the spot when someone sang a taranta at a party and the guitarist didn't feel like moving the capo.

So, for Phrygian, now we've got:

por arriba: E-F
por Levante: F#-G
por minera: G#-A
por medio: A-Bb
por granaína: B-C

And filling in the remaining space:

al cuatro: C#-D
al seis: D#-E

Here's a video of Manolo Sanlúcar playing al cuatro:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2012 9:23:32
 
mezzo

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RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to NormanKliman

Lately i hear a live seguiriya (accompaniment) played on C#. Nice touch even if the classical por medio dark feel is someway missing. By Eduardo trassiera.



D# is also often used by diego del morao to accomp Tangos.
IMO this key is more suitable for women' voice. High trebly pitch of voice.





And once I saw a local gypsy guitarist who played a tangos in g# (accompaniment). It was a very beautiful and groovy tangos with nice falsetas.
I asked him about and he said that NO ONE play tangos in this key. He "'invented" all the stuff...


_____EDIT_____PS____

maybe here's a C# seguiriya



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2012 10:47:31
 
britguy

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From: Ontario, Canada

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Guest

quote:

let me know if you want me to upload a video showing basic chord voicings


Yes, please. I'd like to see the basic chords, and any links to TABs for (maybe) Tarantas or Seguiriyas?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2012 13:28:27
 
Paul Magnussen

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From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

quote:

I'd never heard of this mode before?


It’s been the mode of rondeña from Day 1 (being, of course, defined by the Final).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2012 19:47:29
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

To add a little to Paul's post...

Ramon Montoya made a famous recording of Rondeña, a tiempo libre guitar solo, not the fandango palo rondeñas. The tuning is D-A-d-f#-b-e. Much of the piece gives the impression of being in D-major, but at the ends of fairly long sections it resolves to C#, the bass on the fifth string-- for example, at 1:50 here:



It's transcribed in Alain Faucher's Montoya book--expensive as usual.

Mario Escudero recorded a version fairly close to Montoya's original, which he dedicated as a tribute to his teacher. A score for this was published as "Mi Rondeña", no doubt long out of print.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2012 20:51:22
 
Paul Magnussen

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From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Much of the piece gives the impression of being in D-major


As you say, Richard; but even in those parts, the G is usually sharp, give it almost a Lydian feel. That's one of the things that make it fun.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2012 23:33:28
 
aloysius

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From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

Two common home chords for C# are the c shape moved up a fret with an open d:

X 4 0 1 2 1

or the standard por medio at the 4th fret:

X 4 6 7 6 4

One thing that makes this key stand out is that the open e string will really clash with the home chord (but not with the other main chords) because you end up with both a major and minor 3rd third sounding together. Vicente uses this clash sometimes very effectively - can be heard a lot in the album "me voy contigo" where he accompanies Remedios Amaya.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2012 20:15:34
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

quote:

Yes, please. I'd like to see the basic chords, and any links to TABs for (maybe) Tarantas or Seguiriyas?


Honestly, by your line of questioning and other discussions, I would recommend you stick to the normal palo keys first, don't worry so much about the odd modern tonalities used by advanced players just yet. I mean, the amount to be discovered in just normal old siguiriyas por medio or Tarantas in F# is astounding.....perhaps overwhelming. Dive in to that stuff deeply first....later the freshness afforded by some of the new tonalities being used will be inspiring.

Just to add to the thread, which side tracked to Rondeña briefly....I want to point out that since PDL and others of the second generation have already explored a lot of what C# has to offer, the 3rd generation of players seem to have gone a step further with this tonality and added the low E tuned down to C#, creating even more new interesting left hand grips for chord voicings and falsetas.

Here is Tuto (justo fernandez) doing such a buleria (C# with low C# bass), it should be pointed out he quotes both PDL and another young pioneer as himself, Jesus del Rosario.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 13:19:57
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3623
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

quote:

any links to TABs for (maybe) Tarantas or Seguiriyas


the Manolo Granaina using C# posted above is also recorded on vol 2 of Mundo Y Formas cd (called Alberto Velez or something?) - and there is a tab/dots book transcribed by Claude Worms

Enrique de Melchor recorded Fandango de Huelva using C#, I think on Bajo La Luna cd (called Marismas maybe?) transcribed by Alain Faucher in his Enrique de Melchor book

Moraito plays a bit on his Encuentro vid, transcribed in the book, a played by Ricardo in vid above

maybe you can extract some basic chords from that....?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 19:19:36
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
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From: .fr

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to britguy

If you want to have some funky chords names and/or progression based on PdL, you should have a look at some vids made by the Doc.

I don't remember witch one exactly but in one vids he was explaining some PdL tune structure in C#. But he never named the key as C#. At one point he said it's the "tono de minera por abajo" (coz of this chord (X40121) ).
I just laughed.
I think I've never watch one of the doc' vids without laughing at one point or another . Ulterior motives...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 20:21:58
Guest

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 21:41:15
 
XXX

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RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Guest

Yeah, mineras por abajo seems pretty good description of that chord as it gives the same tonality. Why did you laugh about, mezzo? Didnt get it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 22:00:10
 
mezzo

Posts: 1409
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From: .fr

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to XXX

Well coz i thought wtf he's talking about? Never hear this expression before. Why did he not call it C#?
Minera por abajo! sounds weird to me so i laughted. But after I thought about it and indeed it make sense.

Buy hey i'm not an encyclopedic myself. So sometimes i laught like a blonde ya know.

And thanks to my stupid BS sense of humor now people here are aware that c# could also be called "minera por abajo". Coz noone would have mentioned this i suppose.

So thanks the doc for it

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 22:21:46
 
XXX

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RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to mezzo

lol, ok everythings cool then

Lets make no mistake - the doc knows his harmony! Even if you dont like him or respect him, one should always be so fair to respect the knowledge if someone has it. I mean in general life too, not only flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 22:28:11
 
mezzo

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From: .fr

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to XXX

yep

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 22:32:53
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2012 23:14:47
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Guest

quote:

Enrique the pirate/Extremaduran once recommended a thorough study of the Magna Antologia if you want to learn the cante. If one really studies it one will find mineras in c#.


Hmm...for me it is more appropriate to describe as "minera por medio" as abajo implies voicing the bass note and home chord down below, where as that first position or 4th position C# chord is certainly "in the middle". Female singers sometimes sing Taranto 'por medio" which I always understood to mean I will play in Granaina key to retain some "levante" character. I say females cuz of the range of voice will be higher then males generally.

I am sure there is probably only one "minera" in magna as it is all about cante not toque, and even that probably accomp. por Taranta key in F#, but perhaps you mean somewhere in the collection of cantes levantes there is a guitarist accompanying in C#???

I will check but I don't recall.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2012 13:18:40
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2012 18:23:57
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1798
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From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Guest

quote:

No women, no need for high keys.


No women? What about:

Carmen “La Marrurra”
Carmen Amaya
Carmen de la Jara
Carmen de Ortega
Carmen Linares
Carmen Moreno
Carmen Moreno
Dolores Vargas
Elena Marbella
Emilia Jandra
Estrellita Castro
Fernanda & Bernarda de Utrera
Gracia de Triana
Ines Bacán
Juana la del Revuelo
La Niña de la Puebla
La Niña de los Peines
La Paquera de Jerez
La Perla de Cádiz
La Pocha
La Serneta
La Susi
Lola Flores
Lucero Tena
Luisa Requejo
Manuela Vargas
María Vargas
Rafaela Carmona
Remedios Amaya
Sarita Heredia
Tina Pavón
Tía Anica La Piriñaca
Tomasa La Macanita

Many of these were singing when Flamenco was still disgraceful.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2012 17:21:04
 
britguy

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From: Ontario, Canada

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I mean, the amount to be discovered in just normal old siguiriyas por medio or Tarantas in F# is astounding.....perhaps overwhelming.


You are absolutely right, of course. And I actually have very little interest in the 'modern' flamenco harmonies. As you correctly pointed out, there is tons of wonderfull stuff in the earlier traditional forms. More than I'll ever learn, I'm sure. . .

I really posted the question more out of curiosity, wondering if there was something I had been missing all these years. Guess I have much to learn. That's why I'm in here.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2012 18:59:57
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Guest

quote:

I will have to search for the interpretation I had in mind. I discovered it because I had uploaded a minera on video in which I played in c# about 4 years ago. I got a comment back from some Spanish dude insisting it was Rondena. The tone was kind of condescending so I started looking through recordings to see if I might unravel his line of thought. Came upon a minera in c# which totally challenges received wisdom about Montoya's version in g# as the definitive key.


Perhaps was because of Chusco's solo piece in C#? Anyway, I checked some high pitched female singers. Even Paquera accompanied by Manolo Sanlucar sang taranto at absolute key of 6 por medio....but manolo capoed at 9 and played normal taranta stuff. Sounded pretty cool.

Anyway, one more tricky thing to add we talked about before regarding mislabeling of palo names causing some misconceptions....R. Montoya accompanied some Taranta/Cartegenera stuff por Granaina for Chacon, later we see Carmen Amaya singing Taranto in 2/4 accompanied by Sabicas in G# (minera) labeled as "RONDEÑAS", and then Tomatito's guitar solos Minera and Rondeña Swapped out on Guitarra Gitana that perpetuated a confusion of the two forms even by the likes of J. M. Gamboa who in his video documentary of Tomatito labeld his Minera as Rondeña....



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2012 20:21:00
 
Paul Magnussen

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From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

later we see Carmen Amaya singing Taranto in 2/4 accompanied by Sabicas in G# (minera) labeled as "RONDEÑAS"


You mean the one on Queen of the Gypsies? Yes, that sounds right: I hadn’t noticed that before.

The actually pitch is D, so I guess that means he’s capo’d at 6. Fairly adventurous for those days.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2012 20:46:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14627
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

The actually pitch is D, so I guess that means he’s capo’d at 6. Fairly adventurous for those days.


R. Montoya capoed at 5 for his minera solo 30 years before.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2012 21:29:15
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2012 21:47:27
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1798
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RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (in reply to Guest

quote:

Wow..You take that WAY out of context.


Oops: I didn't realise you were talking about that far back.

Sorry.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2012 3:01:24
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