I recently read some reference to guitarists playing certain flamenco forms in the; "C#Phrygian" mode, and how it enabled really interesting dissonant harmonies and discords, etc.
I'd never heard of this mode before?
I can't remember where I saw this; I think it may have been in the local library, but its bugging me that I cant remember what it said.
Can anyone enlighten me about this C#Phrygian mode, what forms it is used for, etc. etc.
Are there any TABS/videos, etc. available showing examples of these 'interesting' harmonies?
I reckon if you play the same box position as the E phrygian mode on the first position but rather on the ninth position, you should get C# phrygian, right?
C# phygian relates to the key of A major [very guitar friendly key] or F# harmonic [or natural] minor starting on the fifth degree or por medio with capo on 4[pitch wise] chords are C#7 [b9] D9 [#11] E9 Fdim F#m G#dim A[maj7] Bm[7] and extensions there of or think granina key up a tone [2 frets]
Miguel Angel cortes has quite a bit of material on his encuentro video
it can be used for any palo that has por medio or por arriba sounds.. it provides a different color as the use of open strings opens many possibilities... sure someone else here will either elaborate/contradict this info...will try to find some examples when time permits Sure Ricardo or Aloysius would be a wealth of knowledge on this topic
let me know if you want me to upload a video showing basic chord voicings or scale positions
quote:
ninth position, you should get C# phrygian, right?
there would be many other fingerings to get this scale [or any other] depending on how much time you have... which why i think its a good idea to look at the actual notes your playing...play the notes off each of the chord voicings and there you should get at least 7 different ways of playing the same scale
The first I know of was Niño Miguel vals buleria. Same key as Rondeña, but standard tuning.
Later PDL used it to accomp camaron with tomatito playing capo 4 on Vivire....but the best of PDL in this key is "Soniquete" opening track on Zyrab. He plays a lot of this piece live in concert now in his buleria solo, he modulates to that key from A major about 5 minutes in or so.
Some other exemplary pieces are Vicente Amigo's Mandaito, and some famous falsetas such as these two I am playing below:
I like to think that C# and D# phrygian are the latest additions to the set of "natural" keys (don't require retuning) used in flamenco guitar because most professionals around 40 years of age or younger know how to use them in several different styles. Typically, C# is used for bulerías and D# for toques levantinos (malagueñas, tarantas, granaínas, etc.) Spaniards call these keys "al cuatro" and "al seis," respectively, because a convenient chord shape for the tonic is a partial barre at the fourth and sixth frets (second, third and fourth string, like moving an A major chord up from the second fret).
I should make it clear that I'm talking about accompaniment as well as solo guitar. I once saw "al seis" used on the spot when someone sang a taranta at a party and the guitarist didn't feel like moving the capo.
So, for Phrygian, now we've got:
por arriba: E-F por Levante: F#-G por minera: G#-A por medio: A-Bb por granaína: B-C
And filling in the remaining space:
al cuatro: C#-D al seis: D#-E
Here's a video of Manolo Sanlúcar playing al cuatro:
mezzo -> RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (Feb. 4 2012 10:47:31)
Lately i hear a live seguiriya (accompaniment) played on C#. Nice touch even if the classical por medio dark feel is someway missing. By Eduardo trassiera.
D# is also often used by diego del morao to accomp Tangos. IMO this key is more suitable for women' voice. High trebly pitch of voice.
And once I saw a local gypsy guitarist who played a tangos in g# (accompaniment). It was a very beautiful and groovy tangos with nice falsetas. I asked him about and he said that NO ONE play tangos in this key. He "'invented" all the stuff...
Ramon Montoya made a famous recording of Rondeña, a tiempo libre guitar solo, not the fandango palo rondeñas. The tuning is D-A-d-f#-b-e. Much of the piece gives the impression of being in D-major, but at the ends of fairly long sections it resolves to C#, the bass on the fifth string-- for example, at 1:50 here:
It's transcribed in Alain Faucher's Montoya book--expensive as usual.
Mario Escudero recorded a version fairly close to Montoya's original, which he dedicated as a tribute to his teacher. A score for this was published as "Mi Rondeña", no doubt long out of print.
Two common home chords for C# are the c shape moved up a fret with an open d:
X 4 0 1 2 1
or the standard por medio at the 4th fret:
X 4 6 7 6 4
One thing that makes this key stand out is that the open e string will really clash with the home chord (but not with the other main chords) because you end up with both a major and minor 3rd third sounding together. Vicente uses this clash sometimes very effectively - can be heard a lot in the album "me voy contigo" where he accompanies Remedios Amaya.
Yes, please. I'd like to see the basic chords, and any links to TABs for (maybe) Tarantas or Seguiriyas?
Honestly, by your line of questioning and other discussions, I would recommend you stick to the normal palo keys first, don't worry so much about the odd modern tonalities used by advanced players just yet. I mean, the amount to be discovered in just normal old siguiriyas por medio or Tarantas in F# is astounding.....perhaps overwhelming. Dive in to that stuff deeply first....later the freshness afforded by some of the new tonalities being used will be inspiring.
Just to add to the thread, which side tracked to Rondeña briefly....I want to point out that since PDL and others of the second generation have already explored a lot of what C# has to offer, the 3rd generation of players seem to have gone a step further with this tonality and added the low E tuned down to C#, creating even more new interesting left hand grips for chord voicings and falsetas.
Here is Tuto (justo fernandez) doing such a buleria (C# with low C# bass), it should be pointed out he quotes both PDL and another young pioneer as himself, Jesus del Rosario.
any links to TABs for (maybe) Tarantas or Seguiriyas
the Manolo Granaina using C# posted above is also recorded on vol 2 of Mundo Y Formas cd (called Alberto Velez or something?) - and there is a tab/dots book transcribed by Claude Worms
Enrique de Melchor recorded Fandango de Huelva using C#, I think on Bajo La Luna cd (called Marismas maybe?) transcribed by Alain Faucher in his Enrique de Melchor book
Moraito plays a bit on his Encuentro vid, transcribed in the book, a played by Ricardo in vid above
maybe you can extract some basic chords from that....?
mezzo -> RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (Feb. 6 2012 20:21:58)
If you want to have some funky chords names and/or progression based on PdL, you should have a look at some vids made by the Doc.
I don't remember witch one exactly but in one vids he was explaining some PdL tune structure in C#. But he never named the key as C#. At one point he said it's the "tono de minera por abajo" (coz of this chord (X40121) ). I just laughed. I think I've never watch one of the doc' vids without laughing at one point or another [:D] . Ulterior motives...
Yeah, mineras por abajo seems pretty good description of that chord as it gives the same tonality. Why did you laugh about, mezzo? Didnt get it.
mezzo -> RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (Feb. 6 2012 22:21:46)
Well coz i thought wtf he's talking about? Never hear this expression before. Why did he not call it C#? Minera por abajo! sounds weird to me so i laughted. But after I thought about it and indeed it make sense.
Buy hey i'm not an encyclopedic myself. So sometimes i laught like a blonde ya know.
And thanks to my stupid BS sense of humor now people here are aware that c# could also be called "minera por abajo". Coz noone would have mentioned this i suppose.
Lets make no mistake - the doc knows his harmony! Even if you dont like him or respect him, one should always be so fair to respect the knowledge if someone has it. I mean in general life too, not only flamenco.
mezzo -> RE: C#Phrygian - ????? (Feb. 6 2012 22:32:53)
Enrique the pirate/Extremaduran once recommended a thorough study of the Magna Antologia if you want to learn the cante. If one really studies it one will find mineras in c#.
Hmm...for me it is more appropriate to describe as "minera por medio" as abajo implies voicing the bass note and home chord down below, where as that first position or 4th position C# chord is certainly "in the middle". Female singers sometimes sing Taranto 'por medio" which I always understood to mean I will play in Granaina key to retain some "levante" character. I say females cuz of the range of voice will be higher then males generally.
I am sure there is probably only one "minera" in magna as it is all about cante not toque, and even that probably accomp. por Taranta key in F#, but perhaps you mean somewhere in the collection of cantes levantes there is a guitarist accompanying in C#???
Carmen “La Marrurra” Carmen Amaya Carmen de la Jara Carmen de Ortega Carmen Linares Carmen Moreno Carmen Moreno Dolores Vargas Elena Marbella Emilia Jandra Estrellita Castro Fernanda & Bernarda de Utrera Gracia de Triana Ines Bacán Juana la del Revuelo La Niña de la Puebla La Niña de los Peines La Paquera de Jerez La Perla de Cádiz La Pocha La Serneta La Susi Lola Flores Lucero Tena Luisa Requejo Manuela Vargas María Vargas Rafaela Carmona Remedios Amaya Sarita Heredia Tina Pavón Tía Anica La Piriñaca Tomasa La Macanita
Many of these were singing when Flamenco was still disgraceful.
I mean, the amount to be discovered in just normal old siguiriyas por medio or Tarantas in F# is astounding.....perhaps overwhelming.
You are absolutely right, of course. And I actually have very little interest in the 'modern' flamenco harmonies. As you correctly pointed out, there is tons of wonderfull stuff in the earlier traditional forms. More than I'll ever learn, I'm sure. . .
I really posted the question more out of curiosity, wondering if there was something I had been missing all these years. Guess I have much to learn. That's why I'm in here.
I will have to search for the interpretation I had in mind. I discovered it because I had uploaded a minera on video in which I played in c# about 4 years ago. I got a comment back from some Spanish dude insisting it was Rondena. The tone was kind of condescending so I started looking through recordings to see if I might unravel his line of thought. Came upon a minera in c# which totally challenges received wisdom about Montoya's version in g# as the definitive key.
Perhaps was because of Chusco's solo piece in C#? Anyway, I checked some high pitched female singers. Even Paquera accompanied by Manolo Sanlucar sang taranto at absolute key of 6 por medio....but manolo capoed at 9 and played normal taranta stuff. Sounded pretty cool.
Anyway, one more tricky thing to add we talked about before regarding mislabeling of palo names causing some misconceptions....R. Montoya accompanied some Taranta/Cartegenera stuff por Granaina for Chacon, later we see Carmen Amaya singing Taranto in 2/4 accompanied by Sabicas in G# (minera) labeled as "RONDEÑAS", and then Tomatito's guitar solos Minera and Rondeña Swapped out on Guitarra Gitana that perpetuated a confusion of the two forms even by the likes of J. M. Gamboa who in his video documentary of Tomatito labeld his Minera as Rondeña....
