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HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

i finger problem 

hey there guys, i've discovered a problem with my i finger when I play arps,
if I play a note with my P or A, the i would curl up a little, then stays there..
so if I go P, A, P, A, P, A the i would be pretty curled.. I have to look at it and concentrate for it not to curl much.. and even if I look, it still curls sometimes then relaxes.

This happens in arp playing cuz I try to find out why I'm missing the last i in a p-i-m-a-m-i arp.

any suggestions here?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 3:18:45
 
rombsix

Posts: 7299
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

quote:

any suggestions here?


I had a problem with my pinky sticking out. The solution was to slow my arpeggios WAY way down so as to have total control over my fingers. I then consciously focused on NOT having it stick out. Now it's much better, but still if I go very fast (no longer controlled), it sticks out again.

Point is - this takes time, but if you do it slowly and with conscious control, it works. Be patient.

Cheers!

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http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 3:30:17
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

If it sticks out...let it stick out.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 4:00:54
 
rombsix

Posts: 7299
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Doitsujin

quote:

If it sticks out...let it stick out.


It was making my hand unnecessarily tense. Plus it looked weird.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 4:27:30
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: i finger problem (in reply to rombsix

quote:

I had a problem with my pinky sticking out.


Doesn't seem to bother Vicente Amigo....

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 9:44:46
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

quote:

any suggestions here?


If your missing the string, I suggest working on planting the finger and feeling the string before you play. Try practicing consistently playing from the same part of the finger and nail every time. Slowly.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 10:33:07
 
orsonw

Posts: 1453
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: i finger problem (in reply to KMMI77

My experience

My M finger would do this during arpeggios. I am glad I did not ignore it, well I could not ignore it because it meant I could no longer play the same material as I had before I developed it.

What I have done is pay attention to it (my whole right hand/arm/body etc..) and retrain in detail. It is a long process but after a year I am getting somewhere and my playing is getting better than it was before I developed the problem, so it's worth it.

I am still not totally free of it but it happens less and less so I imagine maybe in another year it will go completely.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 11:41:05
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

Yep, Orson makes sense.

The problem you describe seems to be rooted in the way of execution.
I suppose the first and second diggit of your i finger to be the main executing limbs.

As has been suggested, slow down and start out new.
Imagine the finger(s) to be dead ( visible as only slightly bended. - If you want to know how poise looks like, watch your hand when laying down with your arm naturally rested [ ellbow towards floor, palm facing upwards ] and relax your hand. You´ll see that the fingers will not straighten out completely, but be slightly curled in. That´s poise.)

Imagine them dead and move them from the knuckle.
Active for plucking the string, passive for return to poise.
-

Doit, ... * ( censored by author ).

And once again, guys, if Michelangelo had been limping, would it mean that limping helps with sculpture?
You may adore what some can do despite physiological self-hindering, but may realize in the same time that not all they manage to overcome to be technically recommendable.

Can you see the rational difference there?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 13:06:48
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
Joined: Apr. 10 2005
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to rombsix

quote:

It was making my hand unnecessarily tense. Plus it looked weird.


It looks weird when u play anyway!! ;P

quote:

Doesn't seem to bother Vicente Amigo....


Exactly. Don´t force natural movements to do different things. Not good. Ok if your hand cramps..u should change it. If not. Don´t pay attention. My finger also bends up.. I have no problem with that.


quote:

Doit, ... * ( censored by author ).


haha damn SOPA! I want to know what you have written!!! Wait! You work for SOPA!? xD
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 14:46:33
 
rombsix

Posts: 7299
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

Doesn't seem to bother Vicente Amigo....


Yeah, because I'm only mortal.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2012 15:39:20
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

I posted this reply in the delcamp forum and I'm reposting it now.

------------------

Thank you ALL for the replies.. and it really helped alot..

I found out what cause the i finger to curl when I play P, it's due to the fact that I play flamenco and when we play thumb melodies, I rest my m finger on the high e, and about a couple of months ago I decided to rather let my i finger hand loosely by m, I'll get it raised/curl slightly, and I think this is the cause of my i finger raising when I play p, I've tried to play some thumb melodies with the i resting on the high e for some time and it seems to have stopped the i from self curling much.

The i curling with the a finger playing is now a little less, i tried by playing p i m a m i with the i finger touching the 3rd string slightly when the a strike, and when I preplant the m, the i is slightly touching the 3rd string.

Is this a good way to 'train' the i to extend (by touching the 3rd string) after I strike with the a?

If the i is not touching the 3rd string, there would still be movement but as I'm pretty much concentratin on it and looking at it, the i would still move slightly.

I've also tried to teach my i not to follow through with such a great distance when I play the i, and to relax during the plant of my m finger. is this good training as well?

I was really scared that it's this focal dystonia that I spent quite a lot of time to cure this i finger movement.. it seems to be working.. hope it stays this way..

thanks all!! very much!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 29 2012 22:57:46
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

update to add on to elie's thread on finger problems. hope this would help

it's Feb 2013, about 1 year after I have discovered my problem.
I still have problems doing a fast pimami arppegio.
imagine if it's quarter notes.
1 2 3 4, 2 2 3 4 @ about 110 bpm
P i m a m i
I feel it's not moving smoothly from the last m to the last i.

but it is ALOT better than what it was. I can play music slowly now..
I use to be unable to do eg Pamiami, now I can do it.. my problem is only with pimami
and alternating i and m in free strokes arppegios.

I spent about the whole last year just practicing arppegios slowly..
I found that when I plucked i and m together and try to return the fingers to the strings, only m would move and i would be stuck there.. So I did it VERY slowly, pluck and release, pluck and release.

I did alot of exercise on P i m a. Play P, then plant i, play i, plant m, relax i, play m, plant a.
With my pami, I rested my i on the 3rd string while I practice the arppegios.
I did alot of i, a, i, a with m resting on the 2nd string, then i, a, i, a with m not resting on hte 2nd string.

I did alot of resting i on 1st string for thumb passages and on the 3rd string while playing thumb passages which leads to arppegios.

Practice alternating i, m, a, m, ion 1 string (1st - 3rd), playing i, relaxing it to original position, then playing m. and doing the same with i and a.
Doing it with all the combos ima, iam, mai, mia, ami, aim.

and with alternation without relaxing it to original position prior to the next finger strike
eg ia.
strike with i, while i is bent, strike with a while returning i to original position
But I still have problems alternatin i,m this way but hopefully it'll be solved in a few months time.

Another practice is when playing eg i, m or i, a, when m or a is striking, i would uncurl the 2nd joint by pushing on the string it just struck, kinda like a reverse arppegio striking with the finger nails. I practice with i floating and also with i resting on the string after the reverse arppegio thing with the nail.

A funny thing is that I have problems with continous ami, ami, ami until a few days ago where I did something different.
I practiced alot of play a, plant m, play m, plant i, play i, plant a etc etc.
BUT i've discovered when going fast, when I have finished playing amia, when I plant my m, my i finger stop the movement to it's original position. SO that means when my m stops moving, my i stops too. To get over this, I play amiamiami rolls this way.
either planting on a, or no planting at all, or planting a and i only (this is the hardest among the 3). I prefer planting only a or no plant at all.

feel free to ask any questions.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 12:05:30
 
Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 571
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Ron.M

Pretty sure Nunez's pinky also sticks out when he does arpeggios. I feel like as long as one's hand is fairly relaxed w/ controlled movement, anything that "looks weird" is simply due to one's hand anatomy and not necessarily detrimental to playing.

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Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 13:14:57
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bulerias2005

Pretty sure Nunez's pinky also sticks out when he does arpeggios. I feel like as long as one's hand is fairly relaxed w/ controlled movement, anything that "looks weird" is simply due to one's hand anatomy and not necessarily detrimental to playing.


I agree, as long as your hands do what you want them to do, it's fine.
But my finger wasn't.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 14:49:48
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

thank you holyevil for sharing your experience

quote:

I did alot of i, a, i, a with m resting on the 2nd string, then i, a, i, a with m not resting on hte 2nd string.


I assume that you're playing i, a, i, a on the 1st string while resting the m on the 2nd
I didn't exactly understand why you are doing this, I feel it might harm you instead of fixing the problem


I found that playing picado using both Apoyando or Tirando something like this (considering the capital letters are apoyando):

I m i M i m I m i M i m ( continuous ) would help my fingers (i-m) to respond well

also accenting some notes (playing heavy apoyando strokes) while both fingers are playing apoyando helped me to get more control over my fingers something like :

M I M I M I M I M I M I M I M ...... notes in red are played using heavy appoyando

try those as we both share the problem of having difficulties alternating i - m

cheers mate

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 17:00:47
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Elie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elie

thank you holyevil for sharing your experience

quote:

I did alot of i, a, i, a with m resting on the 2nd string, then i, a, i, a with m not resting on hte 2nd string.


I assume that you're playing i, a, i, a on the 1st string while resting the m on the 2nd
I didn't exactly understand why you are doing this, I feel it might harm you instead of fixing the problem


I forgot to specify that when I practice i a i a with m finger resting, I am practicing it with 1st and 3rd string, with m on the 2nd string.
when I practice i a i a on a single string, I do not rest the m string.
And I agree with not resting m on the 2nd string if we are playing on the 1st string only. DEF would give us problems.

The only time when I rest a finger on the lower string while playing on a single string is when I train m a, a on 1st, m on 2nd, i resting on the 3rd or
m and a on 1st, i on 2nd (never on the 3rd as I feel it creates too much of finger flextion for the i finger.

quote:


I found that playing picado using both Apoyando or Tirando something like this (considering the capital letters are apoyando):

I m i M i m I m i M i m ( continuous ) would help my fingers (i-m) to respond well


when you do this, do you change your hand position slightly to the picado position or try to keep it in the arppegio position? My positions are very slightly different, but I can keep it in the arppegio position to play 1 or 2 notes in picado. which do you do?

quote:


also accenting some notes (playing heavy apoyando strokes) while both fingers are playing apoyando helped me to get more control over my fingers something like :

M I M I M I M I M I M I M I M ...... notes in red are played using heavy appoyando

try those as we both share the problem of having difficulties alternating i - m

cheers mate


I do the alternating thing just to teach my fingers to be allowed to lead with different fingers, but I'll try this emphasising thing. thanks for the advice Elie!

may we both get there again!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 21 2013 23:40:32
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

ahaaa got your explanation about resting the M fingers
sounds like an interesting and great exercise you know .. mmmm
thank you I will experiment with it. it should put the fingers in their right places specially that my M curls .. also doing arpeggios appoyando might help too -just thinking

a questions please: if you rest your A on the 2nd string and play I-M picado on the 1st string will that helps you alternate I-M better ?
not sure why but it does for me

quote:

which do you do?

actually as you mentioned my hand adjust the position slightly , it moves up and down in a smooth move

I suggested those two exercises because I feel that we need to gain the trust again with the I-M fingers.. that's what im working on
not sure if you feel like me ... but what i feel is that I'm not certain of my I-M ability , so im investigating

cheers and good luck man!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 22 2013 8:27:50
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

another question please
how do your fingers respond to tapping on a string without playing ?

same as 3:26 here:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2013 17:23:12
 
orsonw

Posts: 1453
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Elie

quote:

a questions please: if you rest your A on the 2nd string and play I-M picado on the 1st string will that helps you alternate I-M better ?
not sure why but it does for me


By resting the 'a' finger on a string you are giving your brain more sensory feedback from the finger. Focal dystonia is a problem where blurring of the finger representations in the brain mean it cannot differentiate the fingers so well. Retraining is about creating more distinct finger representations in the brain and creating motor control patterns that don't involve limiting contractions of muscles.

quote:

how do your fingers respond to tapping on a string without playing ?
I think the purpose of this exercise is to let go of over-focused control of the fingers and to get familar with what it feels like when the hand/fingers are moving but very relaxed. I haven't used this particular exercise but I have found it vital to get familiar with this feeling and to make sure that is what I'm feeling when playing and when not, to stop and do something about it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2013 18:47:25
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw
By resting the 'a' finger on a string you are giving your brain more sensory feedback about where the finger is. Focal dystonia is a problem where blurring of the finger representations in the brain mean it cannot differenciate the fingers so well. Retraining is about creating more distinct finger representations in the brain.


To follow on from this... retraining with A touching down will help give you a clearer picture of I and M, particularly if your problem is a blurred M/A for example, but of course you cannot play much real music with A planted.

Think I told you this one before, but one thing I used to do was plant A for shorter periods eg start with IM alternation and A planted, then keep playing IM and momentarily lift A off briefly, then extend time A is lifted off etc, then try a brief touch-release of A before playing IMIM and so on. Play with it and learn from it.

PS Holyevil, just realised you are 'Darken' on Delcamp - in that thread where I mentioned FD and nearly got shot down.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2013 18:58:33
 
orsonw

Posts: 1453
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Blondie#2

quote:

of course you cannot play much real music with A planted.


I agree with Blondie.

I find it useful to find exercises with extra sensory input, which help differentiate the fingers then that feeling of freedom can be experienced/cultivated/known and then wean off the extra input whilst continuing to cultivate that free feeling.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2013 19:05:40
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Elie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elie

a questions please: if you rest your A on the 2nd string and play I-M picado on the 1st string will that helps you alternate I-M better ?
not sure why but it does for me



I tried this before but it feels weird for me, because when I put a on the 2nd string, my fingers feel like it's curled rather than more straightish for the picado. But maybe my problem is my i and yours is your m, m is more 'linked' to a in our head than i (I think), so maybe that's why it feels better for you?

quote:



cheers and good luck man!


we need it
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2013 2:28:54
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Elie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elie

another question please
how do your fingers respond to tapping on a string without playing ?


if it's picado style tapping, it's ok..
but if it's arppegio style tapping, not so good.
but it's all depends on how curled my fingers are, the more curled they are, the harder it is the alternate i and m.

if keeping my P on 6th, arppegio i and m,
all on 1st , good
i on 2nd, m on 1st, good

and the proficiency keeps dropping the lower I go.

when it goes to
all on 4th, ok-ish
i on 5th, m on 4th or all on 5th = bad.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2013 2:32:44
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Blondie#2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blondie#2

To follow on from this... retraining with A touching down will help give you a clearer picture of I and M, particularly if your problem is a blurred M/A for example, but of course you cannot play much real music with A planted.

Think I told you this one before, but one thing I used to do was plant A for shorter periods eg start with IM alternation and A planted, then keep playing IM and momentarily lift A off briefly, then extend time A is lifted off etc, then try a brief touch-release of A before playing IMIM and so on. Play with it and learn from it.


when you did this, was your a the finger that was giving you problems?

quote:


PS Holyevil, just realised you are 'Darken' on Delcamp - in that thread where I mentioned FD and nearly got shot down.


nope.. i'm Batman
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2013 2:36:46
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

quote:

i finger problem



I finger problems also

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2013 5:11:39
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

Thank you so much guys

HolyEvil you're right , I am pretty sure my problem lays in the M finger

best luck and wishes

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 25 2013 17:32:01
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1239
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

This my right hand now, on a good day, it's not always like that. Some days are better than the other. Playing a taranta cuz it's libre and libre always takes some pressure off myself/the finger. Playing it a little slow compared the original music.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2013 22:25:55
 
RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: i finger problem (in reply to Florian

quote:

I finger problems also


Its the "m" finger that solves most problems in my experience.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 28 2013 23:03:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12201
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: i finger problem (in reply to RibNibbler

quote:

ORIGINAL: RibNibbler

quote:

I finger problems also


Its the "m" finger that solves most problems in my experience.


things that make you go "mmmmmmmm"
normally i finger correctly, problems go away.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2013 5:47:47
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: i finger problem (in reply to HolyEvil

love your arpeggios and picado holy they look so good to me. very nice man congratulation , glad you're back into business

Blondie#2 has advised me to wear latex gloves and play because that will give more sensory feedback from the finger (because the gloves are tight) try that and tell us how you feel ... it really worked for me so good

quote:

on a good day, it's not always like that. Some days are better than the other


I suffer from this same problem and I don't understand it at all ... sometimes my picados are fast and almost as normal then the other day they are totally messing up

orsonw and Blondie please enlighten us about this

I mean if the area is blurred then when the picado perform better, I assume that the area is becoming clearer but then why on the other day the area is blurred again . it doesn't make sense to me

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 29 2013 9:37:47
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