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Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
Is this speeding up towards the end?...
hey guys.. this has been bugging me for the last few months, I think he speed up towards the end of this alegrias falseta, the 10, 11, 12.. or am I counting wrongly? Another foro member told me it's right on, arppegio starts on 1, golpe on 12.. but no matter how I count the compas metronomically, I can't land the golpe on 12..
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
Is there a version where he plays it against compas? It's possible that he is really pulling it back against the groove and coming back in later. But as it is here, it feels strange to me.
Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
thanks for the replies guys.. and as long as I'm not the odd one out. it does sound like it's speeding up in the 10, 11, 12.
another question is that is there such a thing as 1/2 compas in solea? I have another video which has an extra 6.. not the 7-12 portion but the 1-6 portion.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
Ok hold on man. First of all your counting sucks I am sorry man. You drag behind in the first video right off the bat, second one even worse. Learn to count and feel some slow triplets first. Count 1&ah, 2&ah, 3&ah...really even. don't go faster then you can count that and not lose it.
This falseta might be out of your league although on the surface it seems easy. But there is a subdivision change that you are perceiving as a tempo change.
The number of notes speed up (and to boot he ends on the & of beat 9 leading the resolution on 10) PER BEAT (he goes from triplets to 16th notes)....but the beat is staying steady. For drummers shifting between 3's and 4's and maintaing tempo is a rudimentary challenge. Flamenco is like drum rudiments. You need to be able to count and or play something that does that...shifting between triplets and 16ths, without losing tempo FIRST before approaching a falseta like this.
But that doesn't really matter since you are already having troubling holding on to the triplets before. You need to work more with a metronome...lots of triplet combinations so you don't get thrown off track.
I agree Pedro should have recorded with a tick so you can hear it more clear. But the simple answer is NO HE IS NOT SPEEDING UP THE END.
Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to Ricardo)
this is what's happening: the beat is steady throughout - if you start counting from 1, he finishes on 11 starts the new phrase (starting on 12), then finishes on 10, which is followed by the starting of the next phrase on 11...
there is one beat missing from the phrase, it could be intentional once if you wanted to change the feel of the falseta, but not twice, the starting of the third compás gives the mistake away...(and changing from triples to four in one beat doesn't make any difference here - it's out of compás)
in this case - respectfully - you're both wrong, and Ricardo, in this case i feel you were harsh with your opinion...
i did count along with a metronome so nothing throws me off...
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
quote:
hey guys.. this has been bugging me for the last few months, I think he speed up towards the end of this alegrias falseta, the 10, 11, 12.. or am I counting wrongly? Another foro member told me it's right on, arppegio starts on 1, golpe on 12.. but no matter how I count the compas metronomically, I can't land the golpe on 12..
sounds like triplets to me...
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Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Ok hold on man. First of all your counting sucks I am sorry man. You drag behind in the first video right off the bat, second one even worse. Learn to count and feel some slow triplets first. Count 1&ah, 2&ah, 3&ah...really even. don't go faster then you can count that and not lose it.
I agree Pedro should have recorded with a tick so you can hear it more clear. But the simple answer is NO HE IS NOT SPEEDING UP THE END.
hey richard.. sorry that my counting did your head in
Here is the original version henrik, the thing is that in the original version, in the 1 compas before the start, I can count 12, in the phrases AFTER the part that I asked about, I can count 12 as well. so it went 12, (10 or 11), 11, 12, 12 and it's 12s onwards. It really sounds off to me. I'm not sure whether it's really my counting that is wrong here, because I'm counting in the same way.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to kozz)
quote:
sounds like triplets to me...
Close....count 9 needs to be two 16ths and an eight tied to the 10th beat triplet 8th.
That is what gives the feeling like it is speeding up time.
I was going off the slow speed vid with not counting before because ya'll's counting was messing it up. The fast version posted last gets faster and faster each compas. So yeah speeding up...but not just the end, it all keeps going up.
Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
how the heck would it be in when its not? i hate to disappoint you guys, but try to do proper palmas along the track (following the tempo changes too), it will still be impossible...i mean its feel is fine, its just not in compás...**** happens, Pedro can be a friend, a great player etc, he still screwed it up here, nothing will change that...and its a bad idea to teach out compas material too...
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
The second compas of the falseta is simply missing one beat or so. And he doesnt recover that beat later on, so if you count straight through everything after the 2nd compas will be out. Even though each compas is "in" if youd started counting again, ignoring the mistake.
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
quote:
i hate to disappoint you guys, but try to do proper palmas along the track (following the tempo changes too), it will still be impossible...i mean its feel is fine, its just not in compás...
You guys really made me do this??????????????:
and the fast version he gets it moving a lot more then you guys think....
eatting beats out of compas???? very different then an elastic tempo. Refer to those "elastic tempo vs out of compas" threads of old...
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
You guys really made me do this??????????????:
Thanks!
Man, was that not tons easier than typing and going back and forth? Clearly you have a lot of experience, and we all benefit from your contributions. Please use such an explanation method in the future (I personally always try to do that with my humble knowledge). I am sure there can be nothing clearer than showing what you mean by making a video, and I'm certain it took you only 5 minutes in total to record and upload these two clips.
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
For a beginner like me, who has much trouble with counting, it's almost encouraging to know that much more experienced players have similar troubles sometimes.
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Posts: 1937
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to Ricardo)
first you said the beat is steady, and he's not speeding up, i reacted to that, that way it's out of compás... so then it turns out he does speed up, that way he respects the compás - which is probably the case here, but i still think is not very helpful for anyone but maybe top players like yourself...that's not "proper" palmas when you speed up for three beats to accomodate the short bit played, then go back to original speed, that would never work in a live situation...
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
who said flamenco needs to be metronomical? playing solo you don´t have to.
Listen to "Tio Arango" by Vicente he plays sort of freely but you can follow all the important accents.
For this topic i think that Pedro maybe shold have played it to a metronome or compas track FOR the students to understand it better then maybe explain it a bit before playing it with a more "loose" phrasing.
just my 10 SKR
ps Thank you Ricardo!
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Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to xirdneH_imiJ)
quote:
ORIGINAL: xirdneH_imiJ
first you said the beat is steady, and he's not speeding up, i reacted to that, that way it's out of compás... so then it turns out he does speed up, that way he respects the compás - which is probably the case here, but i still think is not very helpful for anyone but maybe top players like yourself...that's not "proper" palmas when you speed up for three beats to accomodate the short bit played, then go back to original speed, that would never work in a live situation...
but i wish this topic would die already...
ps: thank you for the effort Ricardo!
yeah so he does speed up but not in the way I thought.. thanks Richardo for making this video.. at least now I can learn the falseta knowing where it lies in the compas.
cheers to all who replied. and thank you again guys.
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to HolyEvil)
when i watched the last video that Holyvideo posted (the full thing @ normal speed), I noticed it was 100% in compas because I was tapping every 3 beats ( 4 times for 1 cycle) it was very clear. the slow versions are always not clear, even when i hear dancers doing slow footwork, its always not clear!
Posts: 15242
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
m certain it took you only 5 minutes in total to record and upload these two clips.
well, about 4:34...but I can't get those minutes back darn it!!!!
again I point out my first post was regarding the slow track which is pretty straight tempo wise...considering what is ALLOWED by maestros including PDL. If this was a lesson for dance accomp, well, even so you will find yourself speeding up all the time on purpose. Also if this was a lesson in keeping perfect tempo, then of course it's no good. And I already stated for STUDENTS (espcially those having probs with compas) he should be teaching all examples with metronome. Knowing Pedro personally and what he CAN do with percussion or click, I don't see any major fault in the example as it stands.
But for more advanced students, even the fast version is pretty clear where the compas is, and how much he is speeding it up. Try to clap and count to say PDL's Plaza de San Juan....you will see far from metronomic you have to "chase" him all over the place, including several pushed remates as Pedros' here does in the fast version. Pedro's stuff here centers a lot more in one tempo range then PDL's piece for sure.
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
eatting beats out of compas???? very different then an elastic tempo. Refer to those "elastic tempo vs out of compas" threads of old...
Is Vicente's "Cordoba" an "elastic" solea? Are some pieces so elastic that, when learning to play them, it no longer makes sense to try to play them in compas?
Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under
RE: Is this speeding up towards the ... (in reply to machopicasso)
quote:
Is Vicente's "Cordoba" an "elastic" solea? Are some pieces so elastic that, when learning to play them, it no longer makes sense to try to play them in compas?
I believe understanding how Vicentes falsetas relate to the compas is what is most important.
If after doing that you decide to re interpret the music following a strict straight compas, then that would be fine also. But the falsetas will obviously sound different. In some cases it may sound preferable to the original but that will depend on how well the player can express the music.
how good you can make a falseta sound after straightening it will determine if it makes sense or not. And whether you find it preferable to the original.
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