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A new suggested challenging system
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[Poll]
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A new suggested challenging system
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| Yess ! it is a nice idea, we should try it |
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| Naah ! this is too much, just forget about it |
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Total Votes : 19
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(last vote on : Nov. 16 2011 20:44:34)
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Elie
Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
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 A new suggested challenging system
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Hey mates,
Last week I was on the bus going to the university and some new ideas popped up in my head about the challenges we do here on the Foro (especially after we had some problems implementing the previous challenge) so I grabbed my laptop and started drawing a flow chart and came up with some nice ideas, I wanted to share them with you.
I thought of a 3 stages new system that could be more exciting and challenging for us all, The System requires 8 competitors at least (or 4 but we’ll have to delete one stage) the stages are:
Stage 1:
In this stage we’re going to divide the competitors into teams of 2’s
Members of a team:
1. Will compete with each other (each post a video or audio [entries] to be judged by other teams).
2. Will judge between the two members of each other team NOT between the teams.
The judges will be also judging between the two members of each team and not the teams.
In this stage a new concept will be added which is (one vs. one) competing instead of (one vs. many) which would be interesting.
So we will have one competitor nominated from each team to enter stage 2 in total of 4 competitors.
Stage 2:
In this stage the 4 nominated competitors will record new entries or will use their first entries if they think they are good enough for stage 2 (but logically as each competitor spots out his mistakes and weakness points, a new entry should be made for a better improvement) but it is the competitor choice anyway.
The scenario at this stage is most likely same as the previous one; each team will judge between the members of the other team and the judges will do the same, in addition the excluded competitors from the previous stage will have the right to judge as well.
One member of each team will be nominated to enter the finals, in total of 2 competitors.
Stage 3:
The final competitors will again submit new entries as final entries or will use their existed ones (competitor choice). Choosing the winner will be the judges’ responsibility at this stage in addition for the excluded competitors; the winner will be added to a “hall of Fame” thread.
>this system is just a suggestion so we can take it or leave it, but I thought maybe we can do something new and exciting that can break the boredom, it might look complicated, but give it a chance it is really easy.
>this system requires a strict schedule whether for submitting entries or judgment so we should be strict about this point, a late entry will cause the competitor to be excluded[lose] … a late judgment won’t be considered.
And no don’t think it will take long time to implement this, the whole challenge could finish in one month if we organized the duties (1 week for stage.1, 1 week for stage.2, 1 week for stage.3) … example: for each stage Kozz and Adam will gather submissions and post them, I will be updating the charts, judges will post comments and marks ( a nice idea is using Google-Docs ) instead of posting on the challenge thread and so on …
>>And as I mentioned above I think making a “Hall of Fame” thread would be a great motivator and a great idea.
For every challenge we add the chart (which will include who lost and who won) to that thread [even maybe we can add results of previous challenges] … it will be interesting for new members to check that thread and get to know old members more.
A thought:
>>I think we have very few member positions (titles) on the foro such as(Admin,fellow,aficionado) why not expand them ?
I don’t think it would be very hard … I mean members such as Todd, xirdneH_imiJ, rombsix and deteresa1 and many other … who I consider as a Veteran members … I don’t think a “fellow” is enough, I think different titles would be more fun
any thoughts ?
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Date Nov. 12 2011 22:23:31
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cathulu
Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan
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 RE: A new suggested challenging system (in reply to Elie)
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Nice idea, but you need a PhD to follow the drawings...  Seriously, some thought went into that, very cool.
However, to me winning a challenge is a nice goal, but the main idea is that everybody gets to put in a submission and get it reviewed with positive feedback.
I will echo Jimi and throw my own thoughts - it is the organization, project management, and also the cajoling of potential participants to jump in. You have to PM people to get them to help and participate. I have run a challenge in the past, and it is a bit of work but very satisfying in the end.
I also think a challenge should include a letter to the winner, and perhaps also to the participants to thank them.
Finally, I think in general the challenges pick too difficult material - everybody ups the ante, until the challenge just isn't worth the effort - hence the quick challenges for a while.
To me the best challenge would be to pick say a simple A-major sevillana and make that sound good. Something that almost everybody starts off with. Something we all can relate to, and a beginner can profit from, as well as advanced. Cause making something simple sound good is hard, because it is usually hackneyed and too well known. I have heard Tomatito play something that was very simple on a TV show, wish I knew the link, and it was shocking how good it sounded.
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Date Nov. 13 2011 0:42:48
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: A new suggested challenging system (in reply to Elie)
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Naaaa......Please don't do it, there already is a system and it works/ed just fine , why re-invent the wheel . .?
What you really need is that someone says the challenge is the Challenge ...meaning but cant we just change it to include a few whims .....NO The challenge is this ,, ...
For example, ... You say --the challenge is to play a Solea por Bulerias falseta and have and ending to the piece ,,, ...the level is ... whatever it is ,,,,,here are some rhythm tracks if needed ,,,,,,,......
this is the end date , ( not ridiculously long)
this is where you send it to ;.......(asking for volunteer here)
need a few judges ............(asking for volunteer here)
etc etc ..........
and away we go ...........
End of story ...this system works well with us and many other things .....if you really go to play for a dancer /singer/solo . . they say ... play this ... you dont tell the dancer to do things " a bit different " to acommodate you ,, so just have a challenge and thats it /,.............
on a personal note , I see that you have been thinking and have put work and time into your idea .. but really , it wasn't needed , the last one failed slightly due to a lack of authority and trying to facilitate everyone, ......really bad idea ,,,,,
just go to what you had before , tell it like it is , dont be sloppy and people will appreciate it ..////anyone who doesnt like it.....beat them mercilessly ...
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Date Nov. 13 2011 1:19:27
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mezzo
Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr
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RE: A new suggested challenging system (in reply to El Kiko)
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quote:
What you really need is that someone says the challenge is the Challenge ...meaning but cant we just change it to include a few whims .....NO The challenge is this ,, ...
For example, ... You say --the challenge is to play a Solea por Bulerias falseta and have and ending to the piece ,,, ...the level is ... whatever it is ,,,,,here are some rhythm tracks if needed ,,,,,,,......
It's not that simple.
I'm gonna talk about my experience and not about smoking assumptions. Once I (alone) organized a quick challenge with a cante accomp focus, provided all the links' material etc...with the spirit you stated above.
Why I did that? Coz at that time there were alot of posts and messages about how to learn to accomp, what, when, why...Bunch of people seemed interested in this. So i thought a quick challenge could be a good way for them to try it instead of just blablabla about it!
Guess what, just 2 entry: xird and mezz'. So it was a major failure then the one you like to criticize.
Now what?
From time to time someone says "it has long we have not set up a challenge." And alot meet "yeah, yeah we should organize a new one..." But then nothing happens, nada, coz nobody dare or want to click to "create a new post".
And when someone like Florian hit the buttom and organize the whole thing then criticism rained down.
So Riko you seems very vendicative about the organization (and I'm not saying it's bad, on the contrary).
Man just stop to blablabla and press "create a new post" with all your philosophy and see what happen!
The fact is that you're just waiting for someone else to do the job, like the majority of the (passive) members here! But maybe i'm wrong.
About the last challenge, if I remember well, alot of people were just looking for "pedagogic" material, asking for videos to see how to strum, whitout intention of participate. That's a bad spririt imo. They just want to take and give nothing in return...
Also with the guys who asked for long delay and then not enter...have no words!
By the way i voted no to the question.
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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Date Nov. 13 2011 13:09:22
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: A new suggested challenging system (in reply to Elie)
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the problem is not the system, the initial system i came up with for the first challenge ever here  thank you for mentioning me too ELie in your veteran speech bastard :-) was perfect...the problem is us....more precise you people...lol not all of you...but you the watcher,s the correctors the ones that have a million criticisms and ideas ONCE ITS DONE...and not when they are required, the ones that need to be pushed and tricked to be involved...the ones that never get involved in the current challenge but the sec it ends " I CANT wait for the next one " the maestros that know everything about flamenco when it comes to talking about it but can never be found when it comes to playing...
Ok i am joking and exaggerating a little ...but u see my point
u can have the worst system or the best...makes no difference if people wanna do it than they wanna do it....the difference between then and now is not the system is peoples enthusiasm towards the challenge (perhaps the idea has run its course ? i don't know...its not something new anymore)...but it is not just the challenge...we are spending more time talking about trivial bulls*it at the forum this days than actual talking about playing, ( i think it would be cool to have an audio or video upload per year obligatory to be given members rights in the guitarist section )...theres more guitar making and threads about guitars i have, guitars i want, nails, than there is about actual playing flamenco (nothing against guitar threads only when there's more alive threads about guitar making than guitar playing but that's not their fault...its ours) ...
i been here the longest from anyone in this thread and i have done my share of maintaining this forum, even when it was out of fashion and one almost had to beg members to make a post.... so i think i have earned the right to complain a little ...and even tho we are all responsible ...me too 100%
i admit it ...my heart wasn't exactly in the last challenge, i got busy with organizing a show, perhaps i shouldn't have taken on the extra responsibility, but its not like i had to fight anyone for it ... it wouldn't have made a difference, i cant force people to vote ...so i came up with the poll system out of desperation because when i asked you people who volunteers to vote, i got 1 replie... with everyone just waiting for the problem to be solved by magic ..personally, considering what i had to work with i think i think the system was pretty freaking brilliant under the circumstances..
in saying all this, i appreciate the effort you put into the idea....its original, i like that, it might work ..it might not, only one way to find out for sure, put it in effect.....be the guy that does ...and then the guy that gets criticized for trying after  jk.. ..better to try and fail than do nothing....il support any idea, anyone that puts any effort into doing something that generates interest and guitar playing activity here
il leave you with a famous Romanian saying to think about..
"life if like a f*ing box of chocolate ..dont sitt on it and then complain that it tastes like a**"
.....or something to do with chocolate...or arse
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Date Nov. 13 2011 16:11:44
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El Kiko
Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland
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RE: A new suggested challenging system (in reply to mezzo)
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Mezzo
quote:
So Riko you seems very vendicative about the organization
On the contrary I tried to do my bit and fit in as i said I would , and of course i cannot comment on an outcome until it has happened however many reservations I may have, Therefore if i comment , I'm dammed if I do , and dammed if I dont., it shouldnt be like this , we just want to make it better for us all , am I right?
And of course maybe I will start a challenge one day , when I am sure of two things , 1> that I have gained as much respect here as I can so people will want to help me . as you know we are not all equal here, some of us are very highly regarded and therefore many would join in a challenge created by them ,,,
2> That I had the time and help to justify the best I could do , I say help as i could not be judge and jury and uploader etc to all.
Florian
I know exactly what you mean in your post , and I would never critizise anyone for trying , in any form be it good or bad . and you are right about many people commenting and asking this and that then not joining in , strange that as it seems to defeat the point of being here at all. As you elude to you cannot force people to join in, and of course you dont want it to be the same people doing the same work all the time , but it seems to be that way and if there is change it is very very gradual ...
And i like the saying about the box of chocolates as well ..  . very appropriate in this case....
quote:
i think it would be cool to have an audio or video upload per year obligatory to be given members rights in the guitarist section
You know I think this is a very good idea, just to keep things right , and so you know who is who and can do what etc....that is worth persuing.
Now I see that Graham_B has started the ball rolling and I would be pleased to join in.
I personally liked the style of a previous Malageña challenge where what was set was the Palo and time (length) have a backing rhythm (if needed) anyone you want , and a bit of Eq and that is ok. After that what you play , by composing , stealing or a mixture of both is up to you.
In this way the entries would be more varied , does it make it harder for the judges , I dont think so , even easier to listen to a variety of stuff than the same thing played badly over and over and after all its a good way of putting your own stamp on things which in itself is a part of music.
All I haven't mentioned is which Palo to use , I will think of one if needed, I would only suggest something that has not been used before to keep it interesting , but also that could be useful to all.
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Date Nov. 13 2011 20:57:19
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turnermoran
Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
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RE: A new suggested challenging system (in reply to Ricardo)
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There could be another explanation as to waning interest, and it could be based on what an architect frien of mine once said:
" there's the first 80%, and then the last 80%".
Meaning, you start something, you get 80% of the way there, and then there's 80% still left to do. As in "playing flamenco!!!"
It's incredibly difficult, time consuming, and odds are are, if you really want to get good, and get the final level of polish on your playing, you probably aren't spending all day on a computer in a forum. You are - or should be - practicing!
Or maybe it's the economy? We are asked to constantly work harder for less while the cost of living increases. Kind of cuts into one's "forum time" when you're driving an hour each way for a 3 hour gig that pays $100.
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Date Nov. 15 2011 16:35:36
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: A new suggested challenging system (in reply to turnermoran)
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quote:
Aside from participating in challenges, can those who are critiquing the practice of "taking and not giving anything back" suggest what should be done?
Post new threads?
Reply to threads and engage in discussions?
Post videos of themself playing for critique?
sure... all of those are ways of engaging ...its the energy the forum requires to be what it is
i am not saying people have to be forced to do stuff they dont wanna do, like post videos when they dont want to or talk when they dont want too, i understand, life takes over, sometime one just dosent feel like it..
but we do all have to try and do our bit whenever possible..simple as that, in everything, any way we can...engage a conversation, upload a audio, encourage someone that did, enter a challenge or help to organize one or judge one...get involved in the cante comp thread, upload either a track without guitar we dont have on yet or an example of accompaniment...there's 100 ways to help keep the action going on the forum..
quote:
Meaning, you start something, you get 80% of the way there, and then there's 80% still left to do. As in "playing flamenco!!!"
It's incredibly difficult, time consuming, and odds are are, if you really want to get good, and get the final level of polish on your playing, you probably aren't spending all day on a computer in a forum. You are - or should be - practicing!
...noone is saying take away from practice time to be here..infact that's what the whole reason for engaging and challenge and video posting is all about ...to add to the practice fuel, ideas and momentum...that's the whole idea of the forum as i choose to see it..
its made up of us ..i think we should all share the responsibility equally, as much as we can...sometimes balance out what you want with doing something that would be good for the forum or for someone else in the forum...
but anyway the forum is not going really bad or anything...i guess this thread was a good opportunity to remind ourselves..whatever we choose to do with it...thats what it is
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Date Nov. 15 2011 19:20:25
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Ricardo
Posts: 15151
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: A new suggested challenging system (in reply to duende)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: duende
quote:
I just wished there were more contributors to the cante accomp thread
I think i because its hard to find palos that doesnt have a guitar in the mix.
I would realy like some super trad Tarantas,Minera etc Petenera.
Of course we´re not bound to upload cante minus guitar. someone might upload a video of accompanyment cliches....
What I meant was there were several folks that participated that were learning about it and doing their best attempts to get feedback, But I feel there were more then just myself, jason, Florian, and a few others that can do exemplary versions for comparison. I mean there are several members of the foro that COULD have done take 2 or 3 or 4 of the ones myself and others have done, and more is learned by everyone that way. For example... YOU ( ) Romerito, Norman, Ron, Doitsujin, etc etc, that could have done some examples even of stuff already loaded....just to show there is more then one way to do it right.
I am just saying...
ricardo
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Date Nov. 16 2011 16:59:35
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