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Recently posted a video on how to play flamenco tremolo, and I said that flamenco tremolo is usually done using pulgar REST stroke, but classical tremolo is usually done using pulgar FREE stroke. That's what I thought... Then one of the classical guitar teachers on darsguitar.net pops up and says that "classical guitarists also use REST stroke via pulgar, and even more, they MAKE SURE to use REST stroke becuase this is very necessary, and that if I watch Pepe Romero play tremolo, I'll notice that very clearly."
I DID watch Pepe, and indeed, he DOES use REST stroke for pulgar in tremolo, however, I don't think Pepe is the "typical" classical guitarist (even though very famous, bla bla), but he also plays "flamenco" pieces like Sabicas material, and whatnot.
I looked at the following videos:
This guy has a master's degree in classical guitar performance that he got under the tutelage of Eliot Fisk.
Notice Tenant is doing a REST stroke only on the low E string.
All are respectable classical guitarists, and all of them use FREE stroke. Therefore, can we say that classical guitar tremolo is usually played with pulgar FREE stroke, and that flamenco guitar tremolo is usually played with pulgar REST stroke, or not?
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
youre forgetting that in flamenco tremolo, an extra note is added. So in essence, it becomes p-i-a-m-i, rather than p-a-m-i, as in classical tremolo. This extra note and movement in flamenco tremolo makes the tremolo a lot more challenging and difficult to execute than the classical tremolo, and yes most classical guitarists use free stroke with pulgar. Ive never seen one use rest. Pepe only uses rest once in a while depending on the piece..
Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
In classical guitar, i have been taught free stroke for tremolo, you can also do rest stroke, but it depends on what you play i think, or what you want it to sound like anyways.
Flamenco tremolo also adds a extra note, classical is 3 note tremolo, while flamenco is 4 note tremolo(that is excluding the pulgar)
Atleast this is what i have been taught, but classical guitarist do not allways make sure to rest stroke pulgar!
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to newbie711)
quote:
youre forgetting that in flamenco tremolo, an extra note is added. So in essence, it becomes p-i-a-m-i, rather than p-a-m-i, as in classical tremolo. This extra note and movement in flamenco tremolo makes the tremolo a lot more challenging and difficult to execute than the classical tremolo, and yes most classical guitarists use free stroke with pulgar. Ive never seen one use rest. Pepe only uses rest once in a while depending on the piece..
Noob and odinz: Obviously I know that it is p-i-a-m-i. I never referred to what the fingers other than the pulgar are doing. Those are (hopefully) agreed upon. But I thought that classical guitarists ALWAYS use free stroke pulgar in tremolo, and flamenco guitarists ALWAYS use rest stroke pulgar in tremolo.
I could go and argue with the teacher that what he said about "they MAKE SURE to use REST stroke becuase this is very necessary" is rubbish, but I think he will always be able to find some classical guitarist using rest stroke, and say "I told you so."
I find flamenco tremolo is SLOWER in general, because you are using more strokes. No matter how fast you are with p-i-a-m-i, you will never be as fast as with p-a-m-i simply because of logic: fewer strokes = faster speeds.
ALSO, I find rest stroke pulgar is SLOWER than free stroke pulgar, and that is why in classical guitar, free stroke pulgar tends to be used (because what the fingers are doing on the trebles is faster than what gets done in flamenco). However, I can't say 100% for sure that rest stroke pulgar is slower than free stroke pulgar. I'm sure someone will find some way to prove me wrong on that aspect.
I guess this will always be the case when I compare between the way a technique is done in flamenco versus classical guitar, and have an audience that is composed of both classical and flamenco guitarists. There will always be someone who will say, "No, this is not entirely true, bla bla bla..." I guess the problem is that I see things too much as "black or white" sometimes, but the truth of the matter is that many guitarists have a technique in that "gray" area.
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
ALSO, I find rest stroke pulgar is SLOWER than free stroke pulgar, and that is why in classical guitar, free stroke pulgar tends to be used (because what the fingers are doing on the trebles is faster than what gets done in flamenco). However, I can't say 100% for sure that rest stroke pulgar is slower than free stroke pulgar.
Perhaps you're confusing technical (mechanical) and musical aspects here. After all, there's nothing faster than a good flamenco pulgar, right? But I think what you may be thinking of here is the timing. A normal classical tremolo aims for uninterrupted continuity, steady timing, without a break between the bass notes and treble line. That's the esthetic ideal, that's the style.
The flamenco esthetic is rather different, because it's much more common to hear a space after the bass note (some of the bass notes, anyway) so that there are some expressive gaps - that's the style - and in fact if you play it too smoothly it doesn't really sound flamenco. Ricardo has explained this very well, somewhere in the archives.
Maybe for your purposes it would be better to stick to the mechanical basics and just tell them that the classical tremolo uses groups of four notes while the flamenco uses groups of five, and that the one normally uses free-strokes in the bass while the other uses rest-strokes.
P.S.
quote:
I guess the problem is that I see things too much as "black or white" sometimes, but the truth of the matter is that many guitarists have a technique in that "gray" area.
Man, I live in that grey area. (Actually it's quite colourful)
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to Estevan)
quote:
Maybe for your purposes it would be better to stick to the mechanical basics and just tell them that the classical tremolo uses groups of four notes while the flamenco uses groups of five, and that the one normally uses free-strokes in the bass while the other uses rest-strokes.
That's exactly what I said, and I also explained the continuity issue. But I got the feedback I already mentioned ("classical guitarists also use REST stroke via pulgar, and even more, they MAKE SURE to use REST stroke becuase this is very necessary, and that if I watch Pepe Romero play tremolo, I'll notice that very clearly."), which made me start this thread altogether.
Posts: 407
Joined: May 26 2010
From: Sarpsborg,Norway
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
If he is just out to prove you wrong on something, you should just not care about it IMO, seems like he is nitpicking..
I think what you are explaining as differencials is generally true as well, but the thing to consider is that each player do things a little differently, out of preference.
All classical guitarist i know use free stroke most of the time, for anything whatsoever actually, even when they play "picado runs" and things like that.
In classical guitar the players seems to do more simmilar things because they are taught how to do things a certain way though, like how you see their sitting position etc..
About speed, I think it depends on the player, and what he/she prefers.
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to odinz)
quote:
If he is just out to prove you wrong on something, you should just not care about it IMO, seems like he is nitpicking..
No he's a good guy. He's just trying to pitch in, I guess. He seems to be quite fond of Pepe Romero, and considers him one of the pillars of classical guitar (which he is). He's not EQUAL to classical guitar, though.
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
"classical guitarists also use REST stroke via pulgar, and even more, they MAKE SURE to use REST stroke becuase this is very necessary
False.
quote:
He's not EQUAL to classical guitar, though.
True.
Your correspondent may be a good guy, but he evidently has a very narrow perspective. (i.e. ranging from Pepe Romero at one end, all the way through Pepe Romero, to Pepe Romero at the other end).
Anyway, I don't even think the thumb-stroke thing is important as a distinguishing feature, just the number of notes.
Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
there are many flamenco pieces that involve a free stroke tremelo in that notes on strings spaced a string or two apart are used (e.g., thumb stroke on the b string and d string) or repeated strokes on the b string which makes a rest stroke pretty difficult. sabicas's puerto de malaga uses a few free strokes. conversely, recuerdos de alhambra uses many rest strokes as well as free strokes (the b and d strings are used predominately in the middle section towards the end).
Posts: 5
Joined: Jan. 1 2011
From: North Essex, UK.
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
Just an opinion - but I use apoyando to add emphasis or bring out a note. The bass supports the tremolo which is the melody in most cases. For most average players it's hard enough to bring out a consistent melody line above the bass without adding rest strokes. I suppose when the melody transfers to the bass line there may be a case.
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
I studied classical music for long time and I could say from what I saw that tremolo is used 15% rest stroke and 85% free stroke in classical music just my experience anyway
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to XXX)
quote:
What is tremolo?
A wavering effect in a musical tone, typically produced by rapid reiteration of a note, or sometimes by rapid repeated variation in the pitch of a note or by sounding two notes of slightly different pitches to produce prominent overtones lol
Posts: 3446
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
..and the pause between bass and treble in flamenco tremolo is a relatively recent phenomenon, as can be seen at 1:30 in this Sabicas Rondeña, and at 5:58 in the alegrias.
The legend, which I have both heard and seen written in various places, was that tremolo was introduced into flamenco by Paco de Lucena, who passed it on to Javier Molina and others. Molina can be heard on some of Pastora Pavon's [la Niña de los Peines] early recordings.
Supposedly, Paco de Lucena picked up tremolo from Julian Arcas, a classical performer and composer, who played some flamenco pieces.
What the original technique was--free or supported thumb, three or four fingers--and when flamenco and classical diverged, may be lost in the mists of time.
Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
and the pause between bass and treble in flamenco tremolo is a relatively recent phenomenon, as can be seen at 1:30 in this Sabicas Rondeña, and at 5:58 in the alegrias.
Seems to me that it was introduced by Ricardo, and Lucía copied it.
Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
It’s not a question or one or the other: a classical guitarist will usually use rest stroke when he wants to emphasise a bass note, free stroke otherwise.
Listen to Segovia playing Recuerdos: you can hear it quite clearly.
RE: Classical versus flamenco tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix
quote:
What is tremolo?
This guy is using the wrong term. He is talking about vibrato. If he is a professional, then he should know this. Old electric amps used to have an electronic effect that would quickly fade the volume in and out- it was wrongly called 'tremolo'. Thats probably where he learned this term.
He's obviously self taught when it comes to a nylon string guitar playing.
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