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RE: solea al golpe
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Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: solea al golpe (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
1) De incio (starting): AB-BB-CD-CD or AB-AB-CD-CD. Four-line verse, nearly always heard at the beginning of a series of soleás. This is a very common pattern (19 styles, 7 of which are well known).
I think mezzo showed that you need to add the common formula AB-AB-CD-AB to those two.
Thanks for clearing up the Caracol. Although you can see why I picked it as it does not fit any pattern solea....yet it IS a solea!! 
So my next question, sort of silly, Buleria larga ALWAYS has the BXC part???? It is cool if it does, but without noticing my logic of the melody and music form seems to allow for it to be a normal AA-BC-BC if one wishes (axing the X line or adding as one chooses).....and buleria corta fits solea formula as you admit, so keeping it separate also seems weird to me when in fact, it is done "por solea" sometimes! 
I want to point at, as mezzo's example has made clear to me, the formulas you have seem apply only to the lyrics, and not the melody or music necessarily. What I mean is with that ABABCDAB as an example, the first and second AB's are the same melody, same lyric, where as the last AB is same lyric yet the same MELODY as CD. That difference is super important to me as an accompanist....I think you get what I mean.
My way to see it is a little simpler. What Caracol sings, which seems an exception to the "rule", is a quite a "normal" thing to do with solea, or buleria. That being they are interchangeable. So the reason buleria corta seems to follow a "de transicion" formula as say solea de frijones etc... is because they ARE the same actually. To a singer or accompanist I mean. Literally there are details that make them different when you are going a different speed, but the point being a singer can sing a solea as a buleria or vice versa and bend it or shape into what seems to be a "formula" but there is not so much thought involved. There is just the beginning, middle, and end of a letra and that is all. AB and C.....and how the singer fits the lyrics in does not need to always be the same way doesn't even matter as much when accompanying as knowing which part of a letra you are on at that moment.
One other question sorry! In Rito y Geografia they refer to the "solea corta" as a term in the episode that covers solea from jerez. I think they meant the frijones soleas mainly but could that term have refered to buleria corta and/or buleria larga???
One request if you ever talk with morao again...why does he do the second and third lines of cante with F-C7 move in solea and buleria when playing por medio, but por arriba he goes G7-C??? Maybe he doesn't realize but it seems so deliberate.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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Date Dec. 27 2010 20:59:04
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: solea al golpe (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I think mezzo showed that you need to add the common formula AB-AB-CD-AB to those two.
You can repeat the conclusion of any style with A-B or even skip the repetition of the conclusion (Torre, Talega..., Caracol seems to be another who didn't usually repeat the conclusion).
I've already said upthread: "The first sung lines can be AB-AB or AB-BB and the last sung lines can be CD-CD or CD-AB (in nearly all styles, there is great freedom of expression for the repetition of the conclusion)."
There are a number of variations that I've weeded out to get down to the essential patterns. For example, Serneta 5, a very commonly sung style, is representative of the A-A-BC-BC pattern, but a lot of singers (even ones with plenty of lungpower) never seem to repeat the conclusion. It makes more sense to me to include it in the same pattern with the other styles.
quote:
Buleria larga ALWAYS has the BXC part????
Not always, but the tastiest versions are arranged like that. Maybe it was developed that way recently, after the fact, but there are lots of old recordings of it being sung that way.
quote:
...where as the last AB is same lyric yet the same MELODY as CD. That difference is super important to me as an accompanist....I think you get what I mean.
Sorry, I don't follow you. After the midway point, it's always going to be the cambio, except in those styles of Silverio. For an accompanist, those last lines of verse don't matter as long as he/she realizes that it's the end of the cante. Feel free to argue if you think I'm missing something.
quote:
...but there is not so much thought involved.
quote:
...and how the singer fits the lyrics in does not need to always be the same way doesn't even matter as much when accompanying as knowing which part of a letra you are on at that moment.
I agree. The patterns are more useful for comparing cantes than for learning to accompany them.
quote:
I think they meant the frijones soleas mainly but could that term have refered to buleria corta and/or buleria larga???
Dunno, but I heard someone refer to the A-A-BC-BC pattern as the soleá corta.
quote:
why does he do the second and third lines of cante with F-C7 move in solea and buleria when playing por medio, but por arriba he goes G7-C??? Maybe he doesn't realize but it seems so deliberate.
I'll try to remember to ask, but Melchor and others did it all the time. I think it just sounds better that way.
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Date Dec. 27 2010 22:09:30
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Ricardo
Posts: 14845
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: solea al golpe (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
You can repeat the conclusion of any style with A-B.......I've already said upthread:
Ooops sorry. Did you add that part cuz I missed it before or didn't see it before I posted. Anyway, I only notice that repeat of AB at the END, in the formula 1 soleas (cuz they are ABCD). But you say it can happen in any style like Frijones 2? Or you mean any style of your pattern 1 group?
quote:
quote:
Buleria larga ALWAYS has the BXC part????
Not always, but the tastiest versions are arranged like that. Maybe it was developed that way recently, after the fact, but there are lots of old recordings of it being sung that way.
Ok cool. So then it COULD also be AA-BC-BC like buleria corta. So my point is they follow that similar form to your formula 2 soleas.....and that ties in to what you said later that you heard someone call such a formula "solea corta". If it were up to me, I would put those all into the "solea de jerez" basket, but that is just me to make things real simple. Might be Morao didn't used to call em buleria corta or larga cuz they always thought of em as "soleares" just like frijones etc.
quote:
Sorry, I don't follow you. After the midway point, it's always going to be the cambio, except in those styles of Silverio. For an accompanist, those last lines of verse don't matter as long as he/she realizes that it's the end of the cante. Feel free to argue if you think I'm missing something.
Well, as you state next this way of putting together patterns is to compare cantes not for helping with learning how to accompany them. My point was exactly that, that this view (the four formulas) doesn't necessarily clarify what is happening MUSICALLY with the cantes. I think it is important when comparing them to somehow do both, for the sake of the bigger picture of what is happening with the singing. I don't see the point to compare cantes this way and not tie in the lyric formula to the musical phrasing too, but maybe that is only because I want to have useful blue prints for accompaniment.
Ricardo
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www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Dec. 28 2010 4:53:48
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: solea al golpe (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
You can repeat the conclusion of any style with A-B.......I've already said upthread:
quote:
Ooops sorry. Did you add that part cuz I missed it before or didn't see it before I posted.
No pasa nada. There's a lot of information here that I'm editing several times after posting. This morning I realized that Juaniquí 4 should actually be in the "pattern 3" category.
quote:
Anyway, I only notice that repeat of AB at the END, in the formula 1 soleas (cuz they are ABCD). But you say it can happen in any style like Frijones 2? Or you mean any style of your pattern 1 group?
In theory, it can happen in any style that repeats the conclusion, but, because of the rhyme scheme (first and third lines for three-line verse and second and fourth lines for four-line verse), what happens is that four-line verse are sometimes used to substitute three-line verse (as long as the words still make sense) by starting with the "B" line, and this is a typical circumstance in which you hear "CD-AB" in the conclusion, although the "A" line doesn't have to be included like that. It's not complicated but it's not easily explained with words. Let's look at a few examples using this well-known four-line verse:
¿A quién le voy a contar
las fatiguitas que me están pasando?
se le voy a contar a la tierra
cuando me estén enterrando
It's usually sung AB-BB-CD-CD as the style Joaquín el de La Paula 1 (Talega recorded it):
¿A quién le contaré yo
la fatiguillita que estoy pasando
fatiga que estoy pasando
la fatiguillita que estoy pasando?
se la voy a contar a la tierra
cuando me estén enterrando
se lo voy a contar a la tierra
cuando me estén enterrando
You could easily sing the conclusion as CD-AB instead of CD-CD. Makes no difference because "pasando" and "enterrando" rhyme:
¿A quién le contaré yo
la fatiguillita que estoy pasando
fatiga que estoy pasando
la fatiguillita que estoy pasando?
se la voy a contar a la tierra
cuando me estén enterrando
¿A quién le contaré yo
la fatiguillita que estoy pasando?
Now then, let's imagine this verse sung as Frijones 2 by starting with the "B" line. The results would be ungainly, but the rhyme scheme would remain intact:
Las fatiguitas que me están pasando
las fatiguitas que me están pasando ay
se le voy a contar a la tierra
cuando me estén enterrando
¿A quién le voy a contar
las fatigas que estoy pasando?
It's now B-B-CD-AB (adapted to three-line A-A-BC-BC pattern). By singing the conclusion CD-AB that first line is included, but it's not necessary. You could sing B-B-CD-CD (or even B-B-CD), neutering the four-liner:
Las fatiguitas que me están pasando
las fatiguitas que me están pasando ay
se le voy a contar a la tierra
cuando me estén enterrando
se le voy a contar a la tierra
cuando me estén enterrando
Notice that the arrangemet BC-AB (AB in the repetition of the conclusion but with three-line verse) won't work because of the rhyme scheme:
Me llamo Curro Frijones
me llamo Curro Frijones
y no me caso con la Farota
por no echarme obligaciones
me llamo Curro.... (doesn't work)
Here's an example using the style Enrique El Mellizo 2 and a version recorded by Pastora in 1914. The usual pattern is AAA-BC-BC, but she sings BBB-CD-AB:
(Hago) a las piedras llorar
(hago) a las piedras llorar
(hago) a las piedras llorar
y en ver con las grandes ducas
que yo te salgo a buscar
cuando por las calles voy
hago a las piedras llorar
So, you can repeat the conclusion with AB but only with four-line verse. The thing is, four-line verse can be used in any style, provided that the "message" of the verse is still intelligible.
quote:
Might be Morao didn't used to call em buleria corta or larga cuz they always thought of em as "soleares" just like frijones etc.
But the whole concept of calling those cantes bulerías (BpS) comes from Jerez. As far as I can tell, some artists from Santiago started saying "soleá por bulería" in the 60s or 70s, and that might have been an influence from working in Madrid (I'm guessing). In La Plazuela (San Miguel) they still say "bulerías para escuchar."
quote:
Well, as you state next this way of putting together patterns is to compare cantes not for helping with learning how to accompany them.
Indirectly, the patterns do help to learn to accompany because the only way to accompany well is to know the cantes. The problem is that some of the patterns are very similar. For example A-A-BC-BC (pattern 2) becomes ABC-BC (pattern 3) if the singer doesn't feel like repeating the first line. So, as I've been saying, the patterns aren't rules (least of all for singers), but they do represent what usually ends up happening. Also, as you and I have been saying on this forum for some time now, accompanists have to know what part of the verse is being sung, and the patterns show how the different lines can be arranged.
quote:
I don't see the point to compare cantes this way and not tie in the lyric formula to the musical phrasing too...
The harmonic implications are there but they aren't clearly seen here on the forum because I can't post the tables that I'm adding to my website now. The last post on page 1 of this thread has the harmonic information in parentheses and on my webpage it will appear in columns. There are still some nuances in some cantes that aren't clearly represented, but nearly all of the styles fall neatly into the "II-I" or "I7-IVm" categories. In some cases, there are alternatives other than what I've indicated, especially in the II-I category. In any case, it's just a very general outline, and the little details will depend on each singer's delivery.
quote:
...but maybe that is only because I want to have useful blue prints for accompaniment.
Me too. It's the whole reason for the work I'm doing now.
I appreciate your feedback, Ricardo. Please don't hestitate to challenge anything that doesn't seem to make sense.
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Date Dec. 28 2010 8:34:48
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