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yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

how to do picados 

(yes, another picado topic)
I have always been really struggling with the picado technique, I just cant the right the tone and speed. Maybe I just should practise more but I still got a few question about the basic technique that you "should" use.

First technique is from jorge berges book
click
he says you should move the finger form the base of the finger(large joint), and "slap" the strings and passing the string like it dont exist.

Second is from Gerhard Martinezs book:
click
I guess this is more paco's way, you move the finger from the middle joint and press into the strings, towards the soundboard.

well, which one is the "right" one?
which technique should I focus on practising.

another question I have is about the nails.
you should hit the strings first with the flesh and then with the nail right?
I feel that I sometimes only play with the nail, would shorter nails fix this?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 9:40:00
 
Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

Check this thread for more alternatives.
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=147776&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 10:27:22
 
Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

I'm saying this from my own experience and researches so it's just my opinion
quote:

well, which one is the "right" one?
which technique should I focus on practicing.

both are right and usable , and each player has his own method in playing the picado, I saw both picados in crazy extremely fast way so it's a habit and depend on practicing
quote:

you should hit the strings first with the flesh and then with the nail right?
why flesh ? it will make u slower i guess
quote:

I feel that I sometimes only play with the nail, would shorter nails fix this?
shorter nails (not flesh) = faster picado

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 14:01:23
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: how to do picados (in reply to Elie

quote:

why flesh ? it will make u slower i guess


i think he just means the flesh part just before the nail...so u get both..but your flesh will make the first contact

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 14:10:35
 
yohan

Posts: 306
Joined: Feb. 5 2007
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to Florian

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

i think he just means the flesh part just before the nail...so u get both..but your flesh will make the first contact

thanks, yes that was what I meant. When you attack the strings you make contact with the string with the tip of your finger, the fleshy part after that the nail. Thats how you also do normal plucking right? To get the right sound.
I have learned to do that but when I go faster I only use the nail.

I know that it is very personal which "method" you use for picado, for example vicente does them really different then paco. Paco's way, described by berges, feels really unnatural for me.

Which way do you picado's then? Like the jorgers beorge method (fingers moves from large joint) or the "paco" way(fingers move only from middle joint)?





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 15:09:02
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

quote:

I have learned to do that but when you go very fast I sometimes only use the nail


tsk tsk naughty

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 15:10:30
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

Yohan, I hope this could be of some use to you. In the end, you should find the way that works best for you and not emulate others. The only thing you should keep in mind is economy of movement, staying relaxed and always playing from the same point of contact with IM. Hope it helps.



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 17:13:02
 
Cloth Ears

 

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

use a plec ;-p

...the best advice is slowly at first and faster as you build your muscle strength and subtlety of touch (i.e learning the flight envelope of your nails!).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 20:09:48
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: how to do picados (in reply to jg7238

quote:

The only thing you should keep in mind is economy of movement, staying relaxed and always playing from the same point of contact with IM.


This was exactly what I was going to say - perfect advice. I would only add to be sure to always start any picado run with the same finger every time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 20:43:56
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

quote:

First technique is from jorge berges book
click
he says you should move the finger form the base of the finger(large joint), and "slap" the strings and passing the string like it dont exist.

Second is from Gerhard Martinezs book:
click
I guess this is more paco's way, you move the finger from the middle joint and press into the strings, towards the soundboard.


you shouldn't "slap" the strings. that's more of a bass guitar thing. it's not very economical and fast for flamenco.

about gerhard's method, watch the dvd. he actually does his picado from the large point. it gives a perfect view of this. so he's contradicting himself.
the fingers are bent but the power is coming from the large joint.

try different things and settle for what's comfortable with you. but experiment first.

there should always be flesh involved, with basically every technique besides rasgueaos.

as for speed, i find that speed comes with rhythmic accuracy and relaxation. dont make the mistake that i did and lose tone, volume, and power when you speed up. it all goes together.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 22:28:41
 
Cloth Ears

 

Posts: 152
Joined: Apr. 26 2005
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to at_leo_87

quote:

find that speed comes with rhythmic accuracy and relaxation. dont make the mistake that i did and lose tone, volume, and power when



yep...first get the strength, but then you need to relax your hands so that you are not fighting the tensions that you are creating in the previous directions...

I NEVER would have managed the 'tricky' bits of Leyenda when studying it without that realization.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2010 23:17:31

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

The way to a great picado is in your Mind, not in your fingers.

Its all about mental focus. Isolating the right muscles in the fingers.

Relaxing muscles when they're not in use. This takes great mental focus.

You will need stamina too. But that comes naturally as you get the mental part first.

I used to get really tired after just a few picado runs, but that was because i was using the wrong muscles, and not relaxed. Not because i didnt have stamina.

TK

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2010 1:01:26
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: how to do picados (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prominent Critic


This was exactly what I was going to say - perfect advice. I would only add to be sure to always start any picado run with the same finger every time.


Hi there isn't starting with the same during picado practice bad? As a person should Always be able to start with either fingers. Only time when I see starting with a particular dinger is benificial is during a particular run when starting with either the I or m makes the run easier to do.

I'm a beginner so feel fre to correct me guys :)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2010 2:51:08

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to HolyEvil

quote:

Hi there isn't starting with the same during picado practice bad? As a person should Always be able to start with either fingers. Only time when I see starting with a particular dinger is benificial is during a particular run when starting with either the I or m makes the run easier to do.

I'm a beginner so feel fre to correct me guys :)


You're absolutely correct. You should be able to start a run with either finger.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2010 2:56:57
 
at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

in practice, i think you should practice starting with either finger.
but for performances, i think it's better to plan ahead and know which one is more comfortable for you.

speaking of tension, i remember reading this somewhere. maybe it was todd actually. after striking the string, just empty the energy in the finger to get it back to the default position. dont actually strain yourself to move your finger back to the ready position.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2010 3:35:33
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to at_leo_87

Yes, my classical guitar teacher (Ruben Riera) from many years ago, whom I have to thank greatly had me playing scales starting with I then M.
quote:


You're absolutely correct. You should be able to start a run with either finger.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2010 3:59:36
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: how to do picados (in reply to yohan

Of course you should practice starting with either finger when doing general picado practice, scales etc. But when practicing any specific picado run for performance you should always start that run with the same finger, and always play that run with the same right and left hand fingering throughout.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2010 4:26:32

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: how to do picados (in reply to Ramon Amira

quote:

Of course you should practice starting with either finger when doing general picado practice, scales etc. But when practicing any specific picado run for performance you should always start that run with the same finger, and always play that same run with the same right and left hand fingering throughout.


Well, obviously its up to the individual player to make decisions like that.

In my opinion, if you can successfully complete a picado run starting
with M, but are not as consistant starting that same run with I, then i personally would consider that an issue, and a weakness.
You are leaving things to chance. At some point in a performance, its going to haunt you.

When i practice my picado, i constantly switch my starting finger, and i feel controlled and confident in all my runs wether i start with I or M.
Thats a comfortable place for me personally. I dont like having to be dependant on having my M always play on a downbeat, or having string changes that i can only do in a pre-determined order.

But thats not necessarily "Right". Again, its a personal preference.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2010 5:16:12
 
Ramon Amira

 

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: how to do picados (in reply to ToddK

Todd –
I think it's a linguistic question here. Naturally you should be able to start any picado run with either finger, and naturally you should be able to play any run equally well starting with either finger. I wasn't suggesting that you always start each and every picado run that you ever play with M, or that you always start each and every run with I, etc. I was referring not to general picado practice, or to improvising, but rather to working on a specific run for performance.

What I meant was that you take any specific run that you intend to play in performance, and try that specific run various ways, and then decide which way you want to play it in performance. As you say, obviously its up to the individual player to make that decision. That's precisely my point. But having decided which way he feels is the best way for him to play it, then obviously he should always practice and play that run the same way he has decided upon, starting with the same finger every time – whichever finger that is - and then continuing the run with the same right and left hand fingering throughout.

It makes no sense to practice the same run for performance two different ways, with different fingering. The whole purpose and method of practicing any particular run is repetition. When you practice a specific run for performance you have to always practice it the same way. Surely you're not suggesting spending a lot of time practicing the same specific run two different ways for a run that you intend to include in performance. That's perfectly fine and I recommend it for general picado practice, but not for performance.

With respect to "leaving things to chance" it's exactly the opposite. When you know exactly how you are going to perform any specific run, that's when you are not leaving things to chance.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2010 18:04:52
 
CarloJuan

 

Posts: 169
Joined: Sep. 19 2010
From: Philippines

RE: how to do picados (in reply to Ramon Amira

nicely said Prominent Critic... The words of Anthony Glise, renowned pedagogue of classical guitar, that practice doesn't make perfect, but it makes PERMANENT. I think we should all practice saying that to our heads over and over. If you practice acquiring wrong habits during practice, that's exactly how you're gonna play in performance "you've practiced your mistakes perfectly" was a joke my teacher used to tell me.

Todd, but please don't feel that i'm siding anyone's opinion. I feel strongly for both the opinions you shared about how to practice picado. I personally feel a sense of weakness, as you said, whenever i'm not able to play as clean and fast once i start switching beginning fingers. So i think i'd suggest that in practice, practice both, but decide on one preference or choice of fingering.

Having impeccable speed and inaccuracy whether you used i, m or even a as spontaneous starting finger, will improve your skill greatly and would be an envy of any guitarist.

But in performance, stick to one. Practicing performance is different from practicing alone.

Good luck!

Carlo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2010 4:20:44
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