the trick picado

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the trick picado

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Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

the trick picado

Here is a technique i discovered myself . Hope you can use it . Peace

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 2:22:36

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Can someone tell me how to post a you tube clip ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 3:14:08

gounaro

Posts: 875
Joined: Sep. 28 2008
From: Athens, Hellas

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Click Post reply, then press link button, paste your tube link at URL session and you're ready!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 3:48:23

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 4:03:02

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Cool mate!

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http://www.youtube.com/rombsix

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 8:11:05

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

cool?

here is another trick...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 8:20:29

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

quote:

Here is a technique i discovered myself . Hope you can use it . Peace

Very interesting! I wont use it because I found other ways around the picado . But I like your approach! Seems to work.

And! You are now contributor to the development of flamenco! (Beside Paco who (according to Diaz) invented everything.

Thanks for sharing this interesting technique!

@Deniz: Whats the trick in this video? This style of practicing picado helps a lot..yes. But my nails damage due to this kind of practice. Even with protection on the nail. So.. no option for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 8:51:07

Chilli Fingers

Posts: 79
Joined: Sep. 21 2010

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Interesting, does tone suffer from the outward flick with the nail at all?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 9:55:52

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Tone is definately a factor that needs particular atention using this technique , however with even more attention on rhythm , the outward flick becomes almost unnoticable . I often practice playing the outward flick as a muted tone at slower speeds , also all tones as muted tones gives a good sense of the rhythm of any given passage . Try playing with a sock pushed under your strings at the bridge .Peace

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 10:17:40

stratos13

Posts: 222
Joined: Apr. 11 2005
From: Αθήνα

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Bravo for trying your way around this technique.
I also have found a technique similar to this, but i use index finger up-down like a plectrum, but i have the finger straight and do apoyando strikes.
With this technique i go easily above 200bpm 16ths, but i have found out that it is just a way to avoid doing the right thing.

After a lot of thought, i have decided - no tricks - just practice your normal picado. It will eventually get better than anything else.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 10:30:43

Stu

Posts: 2529
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: the trick picado (in reply to stratos13)

quote:

After a lot of thought, i have decided - no tricks - just practice your normal picado. It will eventually get better than anything else

doit, I think this is what deniz meant by his video, no?

ie "your trick is cool but this is the real deal"

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 11:03:35

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Stu)

quote:

doit, I think this is what deniz meant by his video, no?

ie "your trick is cool but this is the real deal"

I know. ;.)

But there are reasons why one should not force himself into a certain technique that makes no sense for a particular player. If we want to develop, we have to try new ways. To stand still and blocking every new idea is dumb and the complete false way.

And just for example if you have a broken finger that donesnt work or tendonitis or whatever, you also have to go different ways.

AND THESE NEW WAYS ARE NOT, I REPEAT, N O T FALSE. (Sorry for the big letters.. :-)

The REAL real deal is: Going new ways.
Just check out gerardos encuentro video. He plays picado tirando with 3 fingers and it sounds like staccato. And its even faster. IMO, that is the Real Deal.

Point made.

EDIT: Well,.. but of course new techniques should have an advance over the common techniques.. Like the 3 finger picado is faster than 2 finger picado. The technique with flicking nails forward during picado is interesting, but I doubt that it will make it.. (But its still very very interesting and could have a good use in some situations! For example..also Gerardo... :.) He established exactly that technique for the thumb. And its pretty useful!)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 12:35:58

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

kevin, pretty cool concept. thanks for sharing!

deniz,
it's interesting how he plays with a straight wrist AND straight fingers. that feels super awkward for me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 13:11:22

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: the trick picado (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87
straight fingers. that feels super awkward for me.

It dont feels awkward for me but i dont use it either. I try to not force my fingers into any shape (bent or straight). It looks like players with longer fingers seem to prefer straight fingers (Grisha, this guy, other guys that i dont remember now), but could be also my bad generalization.

To the topic... you can use any technique you want. You can also, say for practice reasons, do anything you want. But in the case of picado, you will ALWAYS return to i-m picado because you know thats the cleanest, fastest most powerful way etc etc. I also know one passage where i can use this "flick with the index" technique, but opportunities for this are so rare and for general picado its not useful imo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 13:30:20

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Thanks for sharing this, I appreciate your thoughts on progress and mountains.

I'm sticking with standard picado for reasons Deniz explains but I feel there are no

rules as to what's 'correct'. There might be a particular musical moment that this

technique really works for.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 10 2010 15:35:04

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: the trick picado (in reply to orsonw)

Well I am pleased with your interest and also proud of your persuits of traditional picado . I have pursued traditional picado for a very long time before I discovered this technique that works well for me . What I was getting at with the mountain valley thing , is that with this " Trick Picado " (perhaps I should have called it something else ,its not a trick) All of the sudden I realised with the speed I had aquired I now need to control it rhythmicaly . So let me call the first mountain speed (which I now realise is deeply dependant on rhythm) the next valley rhythm (I highly recomend konokol as a system) and the next mountain musicality . I hope to see you all there . I am not trying to convert I am just sharing in the spirit of music .
This technique gave me great relief I will post more detailed application as soon as I can . Hmmmm maybe I am trying to convert he he ha ha lol

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 1:22:46

Guest

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

thanks for the video
interesting watching that
found years ago that occasionally my index finger would flick out in the opposite direction when 'playing' or improvising picado runs...in the same/similar way as the demonstration
yet this was an uncontrolled 'glitch' in my playing..
always found the outward movement frustrating as i could'nt achieve any rest stroke or power with the attack
... so the motion sounded somewhat feeble in comparison to what was played before
so
worked on the traditional picado...as i still am
good that you can make this work

thanks for sharing...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 2:50:26

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

similar to the way one plays a pipa.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 5:53:42

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

The technique using up and down strokes of the index finger, known as dedillo, was used on the vihuela in the 16th century:

Dedillo

Whatever works for you is good.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 16:09:31

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

quote:

Dedillo

Man..you are a real dictionary.. Im impressed. Interesting article.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 11 2010 16:23:39

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 18 2010 10:42:17

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 2:08:30

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 18 2010 10:42:07

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 2:13:02

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

very interesting, but it appears you are limited to triplets? I would like to hear some 16ths...

For me, it is the balance between my left and right hand - I figure if you can get your left hand to move as fast as your right hand, that you should be able to do a normal picado.

Still, keep developing it and see where it leads for you!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 2:40:14

por medio

Posts: 289
Joined: Nov. 15 2009

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

I'll give you my honest opinion here Kevin. It is indeed a cool little technique but I just don't see how this can sound better than the normal picado. And after all if you want to invent a new technique it should be because it would progress the "old".

I just think that even if you invest a whole lot of time into this picado and get it fast and right, it just won't sound as good as a well-executed rest stroke picados. I can't see how it could have the same bite.

I'm no expert, but I would recommend that you would be much better off improving the "traditional" picado than practicing this method for the next few years only to realise then that it just isn't what you thought it would be.

In saying that, it's only my humble opinion and good on you mate for exploring new things.

Francis

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 7:15:22

Guest

RE: the trick picado (in reply to por medio)

quote:

well-executed rest stroke picados.

the forward flick would work better for me as a rest stroke..in the opposite direction to balance out the tone and power..to make it a type of picado..
in the video demo as it speeds up it really comes off more as a light downward strum....not really a picado note...IMO
The Jimenez vid is awesome...gonna work with that one!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 9:38:18

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Thank you for more feedback . 16th are no problem just a matter of accenting by ear .Quintuplets are fantastic I will demonstrate them soon . As for the intensity and wether I am wasting my time , I am yet to try this on a flamenco guitar I look forward to that ,I believe it will give me a lot more snap and percussivenes . Am I wasting my time Hmmm of course not . I do hold hope that traditional picado will one day grace my fingers . I also don't believe my eye is good enough to be sure other guitarists arn't already using this dedillo technique.Peace

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 10:32:24

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

i can certainly appreciate new techniques, and progressive thoughts, but
i dont see a future for this technique.

You're not gettin a good tone for one thing. Thats basically everything.
Without that punchy picado sound, its just not happening. You'll never get
a totally even and strong sound with the outward flick.

Watching your videos, your problem is obvious. You've got way too much movement in I and M. They pop out too far.
I would start from scatch if i were you, and develop staight I,M, picado.
Concentrate on your fingers barely ever leaving the string, and stay totally
relaxed between strokes.

In the Jimenez video, his very first run, he's playing 16th @ 160bpm or so.
it has plenty of wow factor when you
hear it played totally solid, with nice punchy and thick sound. But its 160bpm!
16ths @ 160bpm is totally reachable for anyone here. I only started working on I, M less than 2 years ago, and i'm already doing 16ths @160.
To say, you just dont have it in your fingers is just wrong. You shouldnt say
things like that, or especially , you shouldnt tell yourself that.

You CAN develop a solid I M technique if you really work on it dilligently.

Best of luck!
TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 11:01:02

Kevin James Shanahan

Posts: 407
Joined: Oct. 10 2010
From: Wooli, NSW Australia

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

Well I would love to see some of your 160 picado , I have looked through all of your videos and the only time you got close to that wich wasn't very close you were using a pick . And if we are offering each other advice your as stiff as a board , relax your shoulders and move with the beat . Other than that you have very good technique and play well . You were most relaxed when you were holding your pick . Peace

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 11:43:37

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: the trick picado (in reply to Kevin James Shanahan)

quote:

Well I would love to see some of your 160 picado , I have looked through all of your videos and the only time you got close to that wich wasn't very close you were using a pick . And if we are offering each other advice your as stiff as a board , relax your shoulders and move with the beat . Other than that you have very good technique and play well . You were most relaxed when you were holding your pick . Peace

I'll be sure to work on all that. Thanks so much for the advice Kevin, i really
appreciate you taking the time for me.

Best of luck amigo!

I posted the vid you requested here. http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=147937&appid=0&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#147937
TK

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 12 2010 12:15:51