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Left Hand Pinky Technique
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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 RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to at_leo_87)
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quote:
keeping your palm parallel to the fingerboard helps. one exercise that helped me a lot:
------------------------------------1234--4321-------
-----------------------------1234----------------4321
----------------------1234----------------------------- etc.
---------------1234------------------------------------
--------1234-------------------------------------------
-1234--------------------------------------------------
but here's the twist. when ascending, when you place your pinky down on the fourth fret, dont take it off until you have to play the fourth fret on the next string. when descending, after playing the fourth fret, immediately move the pinky to the next string before continuing to play the rest of the notes on the previous string.
another twist or two to this is, after you have played frets/fingers 1, 2, 3, 4 on strings 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, then play frets/fingers 1, 2, 3, 4 again on strings 2, 3, 4, 5, 6,
you can keep going like this up and down the strings
and, importantly, keep ALL the fingers down ALL THE TIME except when you absolutely have to move them. So you only move one finger at a time, leaving the others in position.
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Date Aug. 17 2010 20:39:18
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to VietFlamenco)
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quote:
He is lightening fast in concert, but says his most valuable tool for achieving that speed is to practice S L O W L Y. His goal is to keep his fingers as close to the strings as possible to avoid wasted motion. No wasted motion translates into more speed. But that takes precision. He gets the movements into muscle memory by playing super slow until muscle memory takes over, then speeding up.
I totally agree with this. My experience is that VERY slow practice is the key to fast picado. Precisely for the reasons given – that very slow practice creates a positive muscle memory that stays with you when you increase your speed. Several things – all good – happen with very slow practice. Besides creating a secure finger habit, it allows you to focus on many things all at the same time – hand and finger positions, keeping both hands relaxed, doing a full firm stroke for best tone, keeping perfect time (not compas), and making sure that you are maintaining economy of movement – of fingers on both hands.
I have utilized a method based on the above principles that might not be for everyone, but it has worked for me. I doubt if this is anything new or novel, but anyone with a spirit of experimentation might try it. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on it if you do give it a fair trial.
The idea is as follows:
For purposes of illustration, let's take any typical picado run of some reasonable length. Traditionally, the most commonly suggested and accepted procedure – and classical guitarists do the same – is to start slowly, and gradually work up to performance tempo. So again just for illustration let us say that a player will practice that run one hundred times. So if he runs through it one hundred times, the usual way would be to increase tempo in gradations – say play it ten times at slow starting tempo #1, then ten times at a slightly faster tempo #2 etc. – all using a metronome to measure and control progress – and so on. Eventually he gets up to final performance tempo #10. As an experiment, here is something different just to try. Try this - NEVER increase the tempo. I have found – and again, others may have a different experience, so I am not advocating this, merely suggesting it for anyone who might like to try it – I have found that without ever attempting to increase the tempo, if you practice it X number of times all only at tempo #1, then you can go straight from playing at Tempo #1, straight to Tempo #9 or 10, with no gradations in between. And because of the increased number of very slow reptitions, you will also maintain all those values mentioned above – especially economy of movement, etc. which will have been better ingrained and controlled through all that extra very slow practice. It's worth a try for anyone who is not satisfied with his picado, and would like to experiment a bit.
Ramon
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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Aug. 17 2010 21:33:47
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to VietFlamenco)
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hey prom,
the problem is that although i may be physically capable of jumping from speed 1 - 10, with nothing in between, kicking up the metronome up a notch always makes me feel nervous. so mentally, i'm not prepared, and therefore, i'm likely to screw up. i like to get a feel of the run at various speeds. and to get the feel at 150, i have to work my way up to it. i find that i may perfectly cement something at a certain speed but if i jump up too much, too fast, i lose the feel very easily.
however, i will try your next method for my next falseta just for the sake of experimentation. but i need something more structured. how long should i practice at tempo 1 before jumping to concert speed?
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Date Aug. 18 2010 1:44:26
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to at_leo_87)
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quote:
with nothing in between, kicking up the metronome up a notch always makes me feel nervous. so mentally, i'm not prepared, and therefore, i'm likely to screw up
i know what you mean! i find if i'm working on something and i try to miss notches out and jump the speed up too high i "panic" and tense up.
what i do find though is that after working through something one notch at a time day after day for some time, not only does the highest notch i can reach get gradually higher, but eventually i can work up to that top speed two notches at a time, then three, then four etc., and the bottom speed, ie. the speed that I have to start practising at, also gets higher.
the most important thing for me is to maintain that relaxed focus
also, my favourite way (currently) to practise exercises is to set the metronome fairly low, and then repeat the exercise one note per beat, two notes per beat, three notes per beat, four notes per beat.
usually i play through something one note per beat once, two notes per beat twice, etc. This is a very common way to practise scales etc. that i first got from a jazz pianist.
it also means that on some of the repetitions i am crossing over the rhythm, or the time signature in effect changes
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Date Aug. 18 2010 11:47:01
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to VietFlamenco)
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quote:
hey prom,
the problem is that although i may be physically capable of jumping from speed 1 - 10, with nothing in between, kicking up the metronome up a notch always makes me feel nervous. so mentally, i'm not prepared, and therefore, i'm likely to screw up. i like to get a feel of the run at various speeds. and to get the feel at 150, i have to work my way up to it. i find that i may perfectly cement something at a certain speed but if i jump up too much, too fast, i lose the feel very easily.
however, i will try your next method for my next falseta just for the sake of experimentation. but i need something more structured. how long should i practice at tempo 1 before jumping to concert speed?
First let me state – because you mentioned trying this with a "falseta," that whatever I say below relates more to speed, so the falseta would have to be one that calls for some reasonable speed, such as Bulerias, or possibly parts of Zapateado, etc. Still, the basic principle applies to all practice.
You've said an interesting thing here, which also relates to speed, or more precisely the difficulty of achieving it. Long experience has convinced me – and I'm hardly the only player to say this – that the single biggest impediment to speed is tension. We're afraid we're going to make a mistake, and the faster we play, the more that fear increases because we know that the faster we play the more likely it is that we will make a mistake. Consequently, the faster we play, the more we tend to tense up. I have no doubt that – apart from long, long hours of practice - the main reason the great virtuosos are able to achieve the speed they attain is because just about all of them started in early childhood. Mario Escudero told me he started playing when he was six. Paco started very young, I forgot what age. Sabicas was maybe five. Pepe Romero told me he started when he was TWO. And so on. A young child learning guitar learns it more or less the way he learns language, so that it seems and feels very natural to him, and there's no reason to get tense. A child doesn't get tense learning language – he just learns it. But adults do get tense when learning and when practicing. This relates directly to slow practice. Consider this – have you ever practiced anything without making some mistakes, even a few? Have you ever practiced anything without making even one single teenchy weenchy mistake. Not likely, or at least not very often. Now consider VERY slow practice. There is a point at which you can play slowly enough so that you cannot possibly make even one single mistake. Everyone can find that point for himself. Having found that point, you then practice at that tempo. Now – knowing for an absolute certainty that you are not going to make any mistakes, you will find yourself completely free of tension – what is there to be tense about, at that tempo you are not going to make a mistake and you know it. So you are completely relaxed in mind and body. Furthermore, as I mentioned previously, at that kind of speed you can focus on so many things that are difficult to focus on all at once at a faster tempo, to be sure you are executing everything correctly the way you want to. Consequently, notwithstanding that there is no such thing as perfection – you are playing in a way that can best be described as playing to perfection. Think about that for a moment – you are playing perfectly. And not only are you playing perfectly, but you are doing so in an entirely relaxed way, completely free of tension. You are not making any mistakes, and you know that you are not going to make any mistakes. So if you take a fast picado run, or a falseta that incorporates a fast picado run, you are not intimidated, nor are you daunted by the prospect of trying to get through it without making mistakes.
Now comes the obvious question, and one that you yourself asked – "How long do I practice any given run or falseta at this very slow tempo?" Many players using the traditional method of gradually increasing speed use a metronome to good advantage, because they can measure their gradual increments of speed in a controlled and methodical way. With very slow practice it's exactly the opposite – you never use a metronome or try to measure the speed in any way. The reason for that is clear – you want to play only at that same very slow tempo point you arrived at as your starting tempo, and just stay there. So there is no need for a metronome. But now – here is what my experience has been. Everyone has different practice habits, different skills, and differing amounts of time available for practice, so I can't make any blanket statements, but – deliberately NOT using a metronome - if you practice the run for as long a period of time and as many repetitions as you would normally practice any run, an unusual thing happens – you think you are playing at that same slow tempo that you chose as your starting and only tempo for a long time, but without knowing or realizing it, at some point you suddenly realize that you are actually playing at a faster tempo, but you didn't know that because it FEELS AND SEEMS like the same tempo. What has happened is that the muscle habits and fingers and strings sequence has become so ingrained and so natural to your fingers, that they just do what they have been trained to do, but they do it faster with no increase in effort. Because you have not consciously attempted to increase your speed you think that you have not increased your speed, but you have. The first time I realized this, I had set a metronome just to know what my starting and "permanent" tempo would be. Then I put the metronome away. A couple of days later, after I had practiced this particular run quite a bit at what I was sure was still that same slow tempo, just out of curiosity I checked the metronome and found that I was actually playing considerably faster than the original setting. But I would have bet anything that I was still playing at that same tempo, because nothing felt different, and I had made no attempt to practice it faster, and I was still totally relaxed and without tension because – as far as I knew – I was still playing at that slow "safe" tempo. And if you continue to just play at what feels like the original tempo, at a certain point you will find that you can just go straight to at least fairly close to performance tempo. It's not necessarily going straight from one to ten, but what really happens is that when you think you are still at one, after a while you are really at three or four, and at that point you can usually go straight to at least nine, then finalize your performance tempo.
Here is what you said in your post – " kicking up the metronome up a notch always makes me feel nervous. so mentally, i'm not prepared, and therefore, i'm likely to screw up."
And Mark feels the same thing – "i know what you mean! i find if i'm working on something and i try to miss notches out and jump the speed up too high i "panic" and tense up."
Could anything more precisely describe what I have said about tension and the reasons for it?" Very slow practice eliminates tension by eliminating the cause of tension.
Ramon
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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Aug. 18 2010 15:12:28
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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your post is very long, i nearly didn't bother to read it... maybe you could learn to precis?
quote:
Could anything more precisely describe what I have said about tension and the reasons for it?
as i understand it you are saying instead of practising "y" amount at each of speeds 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,8 ,9 10, the way to go is to practise 9 "y" times at speed 1 and then go to speed 10. What i said was this is more likely to lead to tension rather than less likely.
actually, what i do in reality is to practise slowly until i feel comfortable speeding up, however long it takes, and when i do so i only speed up a small increment at a time, but i don't think this is the one true right way to practise.... and i vary my approach a lot and experiment all the time.
quote:
Very slow practice eliminates tension by eliminating the cause of tension.
the cause of "tension" is contracting opposing sets of muscles. the cause of these contractions is messages from the brain. very slow practise will not eliminate this. changing the messages will.
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Date Aug. 18 2010 18:48:39
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orsonw
Posts: 1938
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to mark indigo)
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It works for me to only practice slow when doing technical exercises.
The faster I go the more apparent any incorrect sequence of firing and relaxing of muscles becomes; it is there at every speed just not so noticable at slower tempos.
I could develop the correct pattern at any speed but I think slow is easier- my nervous system doesn't mind. Practicing fast doesn't help develop the right pattern just practcing the right pattern helps develop the right pattern.
'Nervous' tension and incorrect movement pattern are two different things.
The last few weeks I'm working on getting a really sharp, very fast, continuous rolling amiamiami etc.. one that really burns por bulerias (Thanks for that buleria exercise Anthony that's come on time for me)
I know what holds me back is too much tension i.e. not turning off muscles after movement in one finger and so restricting the next finger's move and just generally building up tension in the whole hand. Need to practice the relax part of the movement especially.
i.e. a plant, a push down, a release, a relax, m plant, m push down, m release, m relax, i plant, i push down, i release, i relax etc.. to focus on all that I need to go slow.
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Date Aug. 18 2010 20:25:14
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at_leo_87
Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to mark indigo)
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quote:
actually, what i do in reality is to practise slowly until i feel comfortable speeding up, however long it takes, and when i do so i only speed up a small increment at a time, but i don't think this is the one true right way to practise.... and i vary my approach a lot and experiment all the time.
i do the same. i only speed up, and only by 1 bpm, when i can play something perfectly 3-5 times with ease and a strong sense of solidity. seems to be working so far.
quote:
After you've read it slowly a lot of times you will be able to go straight to reading it fast.
 thanks for the explanation, prom. the only problem is that while im working on new material, im also working on developing a solid sense of tempo. so really, there's no fooling myself. if i slow down or speed up, i feel it. which means i stay stuck roughly at the same bpm forever.
i did try your idea today though, practicing a run without a metronome. i slowed it waaay down but i still used my foot to keep time. this did seem to help me feel more grounded when i went back to practice speed with a metronome.
quote:
The last few weeks I'm working on getting a really sharp, very fast, continuous rolling amiamiami
hey, i'd like one of those too! one thing im finding is that there's always a weak finger.
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Date Aug. 18 2010 20:36:28
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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I looked up the "Carlos Ramos advice" from a previous thread, it said;
quote:
The key: DON'T INCREASE YOUR SPEED -- PLAY SOMETHING EASY BUT FAST FROM THE BEGINNING, and THEN INCREASE THE DIFFICULTY over time.
In a nutshell: increase difficulty, not speed.
To increase difficulty this might help:
(1) short scales are easier than long; so are fewer string changes
(2) descending scales are easier than ascending when string shifts are involved
(3) if you reverse direction in the middle of a scale, try to keep the reversal on the same string (fewer string changes are easier)
(4) scales on treble strings are easier than on bass
(5) capo up on 3rd or 4th fret is easier to play than no capo or capo on lower frets
(6) first position is easier than higher up the fretboard
(7) You may find that certain scales are easier for you to practice fast. I find A major, A phrygian, E phrygian, and E minor scales particularly easy in first position; A minor and F# phrygian are relatively easy, too.
You need to practice something easy to start with, so don’t feel bad that you can’t do the harder runs fast at first. That will come.
I think Grisha's advice in the vid above is different.
Ramon/Prominent Critic, apologies if my comment on the length of your post above was offensive, it's just that I find long paragraphs very dense and difficult to plough through. I'm not sure if I have understood your suggestions, first you say;
quote:
without ever attempting to increase the tempo, if you practice it X number of times all only at tempo #1, then you can go straight from playing at Tempo #1, straight to Tempo #9 or 10, with no gradations in between.
Then in the later post you say;
quote:
....if you practice the run for as long a period of time and as many repetitions as you would normally practice any run, an unusual thing happens – you think you are playing at that same slow tempo that you chose as your starting and only tempo for a long time, but without knowing or realizing it, at some point you suddenly realize that you are actually playing at a faster tempo, but you didn't know that because it FEELS AND SEEMS like the same tempo.
in this case you are not practising "X number of times all only at tempo #1", but, as you say, "you are actually playing at a faster tempo", so in effect you "start slowly, and gradually work up to performance tempo", but in your case without a metronome instead of with it.
Either I have misunderstood, or there's some contradiction in the method being suggested, or these are actually two different method suggestions.
While I use both pretty much all the ideas suggested in this thread in different ways at different times, another point is that contrary to this;
quote:
With very slow practice.... – you never use a metronome or try to measure the speed in any way. The reason for that is clear – you want to play only at that same very slow tempo point you arrived at as your starting tempo, and just stay there. So there is no need for a metronome.
I often use a metronome to help me maintain a slow tempo while practising, ie. I don't use it to help speed up, or ensure I maintain a fast tempo, but so that I don't try to increase the tempo prematurely.
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Date Aug. 22 2010 20:04:10
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Ramon Amira
Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to VietFlamenco)
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I apologize for the length of that post – I was trying to be too precise.
Yes, Grisha's advice is different – increasing length as opposed to increasing difficulty/complexity.
To try to simplify what I was saying – you find and practice at a very slow tempo such that you can be mistake-free and completely relaxed. So you don't need a metronome for that.
"I often use a metronome to help me maintain a slow tempo while practising, ie. I don't use it to help speed up, or ensure I maintain a fast tempo, but so that I don't try to increase the tempo prematurely."
Certainly – I agree. I understand exactly what you mean, and that makes perfect sense for that approach. Here is what I was trying to say. By not using a metronome, and by at the same time NOT consciously attempting to increase your tempo, you just keep on playing slowly and you are still completely relaxed precisely BECAUSE you are not attempting to increase the tempo. But what I have found is that your tempo increases anyway even though you are not trying to increase it. By just staying easy-going it feels like, and you play like, you are at the original tempo, and thus you retain all the original benefits of slow practice, accuracy, tone, precision, etc. It really is a perfect way to NOT increase the tempo prematurely, because by making no attempt to increase the tempo you are retaining all those values even as your tempo increases, and consequently by definition you cannot increase the tempo prematurely.
" in this case you are not practising "X number of times all only at tempo #1", but, as you say, "you are actually playing at a faster tempo", so in effect you "start slowly, and gradually work up to performance tempo", but in your case without a metronome instead of with it."
The difference I feel is that when consciously attempting to increase our tempo, such as with a metronome, we tend to get tense trying to make sure we keep up with the new tempo, whereas with what I'm suggesting, that doesn't happen. Just as importantly. the other aspect is that the long period of slow practice simply ingrains all the finger and string sequences to a higher and more secure degree, making playing at a faster tempo more readily achievable, easier, and more secure.
Apologies for the length of this post.
Ramon
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Classical and flamenco guitars from Spain Ramon Amira Guitars
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Date Aug. 22 2010 22:22:11
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a_arnold
Posts: 558
Joined: Jul. 30 2006
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RE: Left Hand Pinky Technique (in reply to Ramon Amira)
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quote:
Yes, Grisha's advice is different – increasing length as opposed to increasing difficulty/complexity.
I think I would include increasing run length as one more aspect of increasing difficulty.
There are several barriers to a fast picado that the beginning student encounters simultaneously as speed increases:
(1) committing the run to brain memory
(2) committing the run to muscle memory
(3) keeping technique under control
That's a lot to juggle when doing a picado run at 12 to 16 notes per second. You are probably thinking, acting, and reacting as fast and as precisely as anyone is ever required to, doing anything. Including Olympic athletes and top musicians.
Getting past that barrier for the first time is a VERY different process from learning a fast run when you already have the picado technique, yet most teachers, after examining their own learning process for fast runs, tell the student to "do as I do" (namely, first play it slow, then faster).
BUT: Someone who already has the technique mastered can forget about (3), so (1) leads naturally and quickly to (2). But if you have to worry about technique, you don't have time to think about (1) and (2). I don't think anyone can think consciously about juggling all 3 balls at the same time. So the beginning student encounters a stumbling point -- "The Barrier" -- and gets frustrated.
So, 2 methods:
I. Practicing very slowly and precisely deals with all 3 aspects of the speed barrier, but (ironically) without actually breaking the barrier.
II. Playing fast from the beginning and gradually increasing difficulty breaks the barrier instantly, building the technique while taking the pressure off aspects (1) and (2).
That's what I mean by attacking the barrier from both sides. Both methods work and maybe both are necessary. I think (II) is often ignored by teachers.
quote:
Apologies for the length of this post.
Same here. If I had more time, this post would have been shorter.
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Date Aug. 23 2010 19:17:40
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