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RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to duende)
Florian. Come on. Only the people who thought they would be good at accompanying entered the challenge and they were all pretty much right. There really wasn't a huge difference in quality between yours and the winner, but a lot of very good accompaniments were sent in and yours simply wasn't AS good.
Yes chords are #1 but you missed a couple, just like most others.
I think you are the most experienced accompanist here and that's probably what tripped you up. You're used to working live with human beings who can tell you what they want and rehearse for shows, and you're allowed to be more in the background. Here since this was a recording for a challenge I think you thought you had to really show your skills and impress the judges, which kind of backfired.
DON"T WORRY you are still one of the best accompanists on this forum. Keep doing what you're doing because you are a "pro" and you're allowed to make your own artistic statement as long as you stand by it.
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Florian)
Flo, you´re mixing it all up and I cant really go inbto your text, take it apart and give you an exact answer. It would be very time consuming. Please just forget that I wrote something.
quote:
quote:
Florian
i dont know if you are interested in thoughts? but here they are.
ofcourse man by all means...hope its cool if i replie
quote:
I like your rasgueados and your picado ideas, but not the way you performed them. IMO they need to be a lot quieter and in level with the singing. A lot more subtle
oh so its a question of volume ? that was it ? ...any chord ok as long as the volume is low ?..i know my performance was far from perfect...however my far from perfect ...was less far from perfect as far as say chords
well if you look at the video you will see that i only do loud rasqueados or picados in between singing and in places where i wanna emphasize what the singer sings and mimic and answer and contribuite to the feel and even perhaps push it even more in places hence the begining of the 2nd letra...except for one litlle spot the video is 100% what i did in the audio however the audio had different eq effect..i regret that...should have gone for the same sound everyone had..bassy and deep
i think thats the job of the guitarist not just to hide around soft chords and voice and hope for the best...i see it as something you do togheder
and yeah...then theres still the wrong chords issue
do this experienced singers say to you ok Anders well done...you hitt the wrong chords and missed the changes but atleast you didnt do picado or raasqueado ?
look man i am not in the mood to be disagreable..i am still trying to figure out how the **** i placed behind ... you for example..u were playing A instead of be and B instead of a in places and missed the C chord compleatly ...pardon the honesty [/quote)
Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Florian)
quote:
belive me if i thought i missed as much as others that placed higher then me i obviously wouldnt have a leg to stand on and wouldnt be asking
Flo I understand what this is like for you - I haven't done particularly well in the last 3 beginners' challenges. And sometimes I haven't agreed that others who scored higher were better than me. Sometimes I felt the criticism didn't respect my effort and improvement.
But music is an art not a science, and not everything can be explained (though Jason and Norman gave some pretty detailed analyses). And the judging is a bit of an art too - a bit subjective. As much as I respect the opinion of the judges, they are just a few people. Others will disagree with some of what they said.
Perhaps you could be more confident in your own judgement. If you liked the way you played it, isn't that enough? If the singers you work with like the way you accompany them, isn't that what counts?
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Florian)
quote:
anyway cheers
Yes…
I have a known weakness for my friend Florian. However, I must reprimand his reaction along with other similar protests we had in the past.
Generally it is not a good policy to discuss grades with Students (I learned that at my own expense, stirring nervous grudges over claims of discrimination, negligence and incompetence by the lower graded). However, the educational opportunity such discussion will lend, should outweigh any concern that it may also stimulate a confrontation where a conversation should be in order.
The thorough commentaries Jason, Norman and Ricardo offered are invaluable lessons for both the contestants and the audience. But each may indeed offend a sensitive musician, while the more articulated the “opinion” the Judge offers the more it also offers its flank to further challenge and appeal.
While taste is an absolute subjective measure, technical critique is objective and as such, can be challenged on the (lack of) accurate application of the objective standards invoked by the Judge.
We should not forget that each judge is devoting time to listen carefully (over and over) to each submission, and then time to draft his opinion and score. In doing so, as frank as Judges have been, they carefully crafted their comments to avoid insulting the participants. After all, one may shine in one challenge, a concert or CD while performing miserably in another contest. Comments are not defining the caliber of the musician, but simply the relative and specific performance submitted, we should not forget that.
Ricardo, one of my favorite musicians on this Foro, submitted his rendition of Tomatitio’s “la Ardila” quite below his standards, as we have come to know them and admire them. The Judges’ comments whether from incompetent, such as I am, and more learned members, uniformly punished his (admittedly) hurried performance. That competition which saw our own “giants” at play, hurt the sensitive feelings of a few as well. I remember being myself quite disturbed, and even offered an apology, for offering a “blonde” judgment in a challenge which called for more prepared arbitrators than I am.
I suggest we need to see this as in law we see the difference between a “Judge” and a “Jury”. That is what we have here, not professional judges but a jury, one constituted by our peers who are offering their judgment acting on a simple set of instructions. Can we challenge the “Jurors’ ” findings? No we cannot and should not… not unless they show egregious misconduct, corruption of opinion, bias or insanity.
Within the limits of each Juror’s knowledge, and available time, it seems that all judges have acted in good faith, and have devoted their passionate time to offer as sound an evaluation as we could afford and ask of anyone. These protests, as cute as they are, will ultimately deter members from acting as judges. I –for instance- took it truly to heart when people wrote on the Forum that the Ardila’s challenge had been compromised by (basically) “ half witted and ignorant of Flamenco” judges.
When we receive summons to serve on a Jury here in the US, most will excogitate formidably creative excuses to avoid serving. We don’t want that spirit on this Forum.
To offensively impugn the Judges (or Jurors)’s verdicts is simply wrong and counterproductive, regardless of how sincerely we disagree with them.
We can all harbor the self indulging relief to our disgruntled disappointment that, had it been a different jury so would the outcome…. But if we voice that too loudly, there ain’t gonna be no more Juries!!!
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to gj Michelob)
quote:
When we receive summons to serve on a Jury here in the US, most will excogitate formidably creative excuses to avoid serving.
Really gj?
The reason why I'm laughing is that most folk here try to wangle their way out of doing Jury Service too!
However I have it on the authority of a Clerk of Court here, who is a good customer and tells me great and funny court anecdotes, that it is useless saying you have urgent business issues or that you are self-employed and have no-one else to look after your affairs while you serve in Court etc etc.
He told me the best excuse to use was to simply say that you already have a Holiday booked during that period.
Simple as that!
He told me that for some reason that one ALWAYS gets accepted without question!
(OK Folks...Don't say you didn't hear this "insider information" here first! )
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
Really gj?
The reason why I'm laughing is that most folk here try to wangle their way out of doing Jury Service too!
However I have it on the authority of a Clerk of Court here... ... He told me the best excuse to use was to simply say that you already have a Holiday booked during that period.
Simple as that! He told me that for some reason that one ALWAYS gets accepted without question!
(OK Folks...Don't say you didn't hear this "insider information" here first! )
cheers, Ron
That is a nice excuse, but you may end up being rescheduled within a short time. We look for excuses which wil let you off the hook for a term (4 years).
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Ron.M)
quote:
He told me that for some reason that one ALWAYS gets accepted without question!
Tell them you have a graduate degree. That way you'll only have to sit in the jury pool for a day and you'll never be chosen. Attorneys don't want educated jurors. You almost never hear of attorneys, judges, MD's and other degreed people being chosen to serve on a jury. Sure they sit in the pool for a day but that's about it.
In the 1970's, and before, jury duty was awful. If you were called you sat in that pool for up to three months until you were chosen. Now if you aren't chosen on the first day you are free for four years.
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
folks really interesting reading here,
from Normans comments to GJ and others.
I thank Florian for sending me the vid of his , it didn't work so then i thank Kozz.
government blocks anything Flamenco here too much voodoo !
i gotta say i really enjoyed florians Video and performance , hes jst getting into it , and i dig that, not perfect playing things ot of the book style., it was florians on take groovy !
Ron me old mukka ! what the story with toddk ?? u r not a wee bit strong ?? with the words ?
ok all have a fun day.
well done to all folks all partisipated on the cante challenge a brilliant idea
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Ron.M)
Hola
I should like to say that I shall not involve myself in judging any more.
Just over a year ago, my great friend José Millán died. He was the most complete singer in Cádiz and for a couple of years I accompanied him at weddings, baptisms and in juergas. When he died, I put away my flamenco guitar and have since involved myself in trying to compile a CD from the recordings I have of him singing live, as a sort of homenaje. Now that I have achieved this, I find that I still have no interest in playing flamenco and have turned to steel string. So I have little to offer in flamenco now.
Nor do I feel that I fit in well in this foro: what Anders has to say about accompanying flamenco singers in Andalucía on a basic level and on a regular basis seems just right to me: it is the only way to learn.
In addition, the childish and ill-informed reponse to the cante accompaniment challenge went a bit too far.
Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Guest)
Sean,
So sorry to hear of your loss.
I hope you stay with us and provide insight from time to time. The truth is that most of us are here to learn from those who know more. Various opinions are very valuable.
I think you will find out that Flo was just having a little rant like he does sometimes and that he meant no real bad feelings toward you(or any other judge). Sometimes it is difficult to be sensative to others on the forum while trying to express emotion. Sometimes people post seriously and sometimes out of fun and sometimes a mix. Most people feel differently from day to day and would probably post differently later. Stick around man! Rod
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Gummy)
I guess Flo was a little childish...... Bad Dog!
Sorry to see you go Sean. Especially over something so silly. Perhaps you will reconsider. You do have valuable information to share and I am sure your friend would bless the idea of sharing knowledge.
Not everyone can move to Spain and learn the way you have. To say that the way you learned is THE ONLY WAY, is a bit archaic. You are right, it is THE BEST way to learn cante accompaniment. That cannot be denied.
I think its great you are taking some time to honor your friend and steel strings are cool too. We will be here on the Foro being childish and discussing various aspects of flamenco, arguing, agreeing, defending, criticizing and all the other stuff we do here. Please check back with us when you feel better.
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Gummy)
I agree Gummy. I respect and enjoy everyone here and their unique perspective, sense of humor or lack of it in some cases. Its one of the things that makes it special. You can come to this place and learn, you can get angry and you can laugh your ass off........ and its free.
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
Well, Sean...
I certainly think you fit in here even though I can imagine that its not always easy to be you. You have your own very controversial style. But even though I sometimes dont agree with what you say and the way you say it, I want to add that I have a lot of respect of your knowledge of cante and flamenco in general. I hope you stay. We need someone like you.
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
Hey Florian..... Do you think it might be possible that the next time you participate in a challenge here, that you can put a filter on your postings? It seems that it is turning some valuable members off.
I participate here to inform and reach out to people, not to turn them away. Lets keep our eyes on what we can do for the community and less on our own egos.... okay brother?
Posts: 14825
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Guest)
Just wanted to add a little thing, added perspective not really talked about in this thread. When I heard Felix sing, and maybe since I played with him before, the Frijones letra especially, the way he extends and resolves, is a very typical "macho" way to do that letra for baile. And in my mind I sort of envisioned the dozens of choreographed versions of that thing when listening to the entries. In practice, i would be doing what many (including my own judging in this challenge) would consider way to busy and noisy rasgueado. I sensed that Florians version was closer to that method of accomp where the guitar has to really really DRIVE the compas under the dancer or dancers feet while the singer belts that letra out.
It is a very different way to accompany (cante)than if you were just with the singer alone, and totally legit and expected in those specific baile situations (so it is a bit different when cante and baile are together). Of course I am sure there will be the opinion that playing for baile IN GENERAL may not be to taste, but I don't think it would be fair to judge against a guitarist who is used to playing that way. At least myself.
I would give florian a point back for his version except that actually, if it WERE the case he was totally thinking dance+singer with his rasgeuado, well actually, he could be rolling it even MORE!! Like "BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!! for two whole compases!
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Andy Culpepper)
what now i got to apologise to sean for him beeing grumpy when listening to my submisssion ? and for questioning him ? i found his comments insulting and i disagreed..i didnt offend anyone, i didnt point any fingers i just politely expressed that i disagreed..sure il just smile and pretend i agree with everything from now on cause appaarently its childish to disagree..
well excuse me
well sean i am sorry i didnt agree with you, my behaviour is no more childish then yours now..for example...whos beeing a drama queen now that i droped it ? on a personal level i like and i do respect you i just disagreed with with you, i hope you dont go but if you have too...dont let the door hitt you on your way out
give me a freaking brake...oh god forbid florian disagreed with my opinion
RE: **CANTE CHALLENGE ENTRIES** (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Just wanted to add a little thing, added perspective not really talked about in this thread. When I heard Felix sing, and maybe since I played with him before, the Frijones letra especially, the way he extends and resolves, is a very typical "macho" way to do that letra for baile. And in my mind I sort of envisioned the dozens of choreographed versions of that thing when listening to the entries. In practice, i would be doing what many (including my own judging in this challenge) would consider way to busy and noisy rasgueado. I sensed that Florians version was closer to that method of accomp where the guitar has to really really DRIVE the compas under the dancer or dancers feet while the singer belts that letra out.
It is a very different way to accompany (cante)than if you were just with the singer alone, and totally legit and expected in those specific baile situations (so it is a bit different when cante and baile are together). Of course I am sure there will be the opinion that playing for baile IN GENERAL may not be to taste, but I don't think it would be fair to judge against a guitarist who is used to playing that way. At least myself.
I would give florian a point back for his version except that actually, if it WERE the case he was totally thinking dance+singer with his rasgeuado, well actually, he could be rolling it even MORE!! Like "BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!! for two whole compases!
Acually check it out at about 3:30
Ricardo
Good point Ricardo...... except it was a cante accompaniment challenge, not a cante/imaginary dance accompaniment challenge.....
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