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sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to DaveyS

Didn't know a Romero could come for sale at such a bargain price:

https://www.flamencoguitarsforsale.net/product/guitarra-flamenca-jose-romero-2015/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2018 17:56:57
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 547
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

Romeros do not have good resale for whatever reason. No flamenco guitar really does but his seem to really sit for a while and go for low prices comparative to new.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2018 21:16:56
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

quote:

No flamenco guitar really does

I agree, with the exception of few names.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2018 22:14:48
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

I am finding this out first hand as I am trying to sell a decent guitar for the first time ever. I had no problem selling my first guitar which was a Raimundo, but this is a more mid level guitar made my a Spanish builder (Casimiro Gonzalez) and I am getting no response whatsoever. I would rather sell to someone in my town as there is a demand for good flamenco guitars, but I guess no one has money to spend. I may have to lower the price drastically or else be willing to ship the guitar elsewhere. I am just discovering Romero and I am very impressed by the guitars I have heard especially the 2017 you posted sartorius.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 24 2018 22:41:14
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Harry

You're so right about flamenco guitars (re)sales. I have a batch (so to speak) of Carrillo guitars (new and used) that just don't want to go even at bargain prices. Some of them can beat of few of the current highly prized names but nobody notices or believes it. Paco knew it because his nephew was using one on stage next to him in his last concerts.

In this video of one of his very (if not the) last concerts you can see he swapped his Conde for the Carrillo. At the very beginning notice his nephew Antonio Sanchez playing the Conde. You'll also notice Carrillo's rosette and the rosewood buttons typical on his guitars.




IMO Romeros are underated which is a good thing as you can grab one for a great price. See the thread about Rosas del Amor where Tomatito is playing a Ramirez with a tap plate. Remember that Romero worked for Ramirez until 1983 when he decided to open his own shop in Espoz y Mina. He decided to specialize in flamenco guitars refining that typical sound that is so difficult to attain. The quality of the woods used and the degree of attention to details, exact measurements and overall quality of craftmanship is far superior to many other shops in the centre of Madrid.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2018 9:15:06
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1627
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

quote:

Romeros are underated


True. I am thinking in selling my Gerundino, thanks to a very bad operacion, which left my left hand with just 3 fingers working. If I did, I would buy a new guitar from José, just to have it. Nobody works like him.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2018 14:37:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

quote:

In this video of one of his very (if not the) last concerts you can see he swapped his Conde for the Carrillo. At the very beginning notice his nephew Antonio Sanchez playing the Conde.


Err, no amigo. That is his same conde he used since 1982. However yes Antonio Sanchez also got rid of his Carrillo for a Conde, but it’s a modern Felipe or Mariano type conde. I can only assume you are tricked by the tuner clipped to the media luna?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2018 14:46:27
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/softopsupra/Carrillo%20Conde.jpg?t=1524587142


You are right, on the video he's playing the Conde which is recognizable by the white saddle on the bridge vs the brown one on the Carrillo.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 25 2018 16:26:41
 
Plazoleño

 

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 16 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

For sure it's his conde carrillo's tuning..

I dont see late paco live videos with other guitar except lester devoe.

How guys of usa do you like devoe?
I know his guitars there are good !
Here in Jerez some guys like it but he dont very famous generally in the mundillo .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2018 16:07:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Plazoleño

quote:

ORIGINAL: Plazoleño

For sure it's his conde carrillo's tuning..

I dont see late paco live videos with other guitar except lester devoe.

How guys of usa do you like devoe?
I know his guitars there are good !
Here in Jerez some guys like it but he dont very famous generally in the mundillo .

Like any Luthier some are great, others mediocre

Paco appeared , oddly, in Moscow with a 1970 era conde in 2010





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2018 18:18:03
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

I agree: Paco used Conde guitars on stage.
The guitar on the pic here above looks like a cedar topped Conde. Probably one of the many Faustino sourced him with.
Someone could try the favourite '75 Paco's Conde and reported that it's definitely a hard guitar to play. Paco himself said he finds it ideal on stage but uncomfortable to play it at home.
It's a Pau ferro/ spruce, once dipped orangish and after refinished with clear nitro by Carrillo.
Here are some pictures:
http://www.mundo-flamenco.com/nc/en/box-special.html

The guitars of Carrillo became widely used by many players (the same you would have previously seen playing Conde or Sanchis) when he started the collaboration with Paco for the Paco de Lucia guitar line. Later on Tomatito did the same thing.
Carrillo took the occasion also to give a boost to his business and probably sold/gave his guitars to many players (the Habichuelas, Diego de Morao, Antonio Rey, Dani del Moron etc ).

Jose’ Romero has a very good reputation.
I consider his guitars in the same league of the other historical makers of Madrid.
I don't know if it is just me, but I have the feeling that te flamenco guitars made in the seventies were better that what you may find today.
Recently I have been told great things of Leonard Plattner (if you like the old sound).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2018 7:38:14
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

(In reply to Echi) Actually the guitar Josele is holding in his hands on the 2010 concert pic is one of these (PdL Signature series) that was given to him as a gift by Paco. Now he uses one of the "Pasión" series made later, starting from 2012.

(1:13):



The guitars of the 60's or 70's weren't better than today's. It's just that now they are different, even considering the source (name or label) is the same. I doubt the so-called "reedición" series have the same sound as before...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2018 9:58:24
 
Plazoleño

 

Posts: 16
Joined: Oct. 16 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

Reedicion of habichuela i dont know but the moraito is nothin similary to the original.
I tried the 2 .

The original sound extra but is blanda.

The reedicion dont sound better than a sanchis lopez at 2k...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2018 16:23:05
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

As to José Romero I've found that his guitars have now reached the kind of perfection and maturity that only a master builder with a lifetime of working and researching can attain.

I remember trying a Romero for the first time back in 2007. It was a 1997 blanca. I started playing it privately and we were all amazed how good a guitar it was. Javier Conde was listening and his father was the first to comment on it. He was really impressed by the instrument although we had just been listening to a full concert of Javier on his well-known instrument at the Bozar concert hall in Brussels just a few hours before.

Then in February 2017 I bought my guitar in Romero's shop; a Rosewood/Spruce that I've been playing ever since. Truly the guitar of a lifetime as it's been improving so much over the time. There's something peculiar about it that I've only also found on a Manuel de la Chica so far: it has so many harmonics in all places that on several occasions while playing I thought I'd heard the doorbell or even my phone ringing. But there was nobody at the door and the mobile had no call or message recorded....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 29 2018 10:24:14
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

quote:

Reedicion of habichuela i dont know but the moraito is nothin similary to the original.
I tried the 2 .

The original sound extra but is blanda.

The reedicion dont sound better than a sanchis lopez at 2k...


+1

If I can say it, the main factor is consistency: You may find a great guitar from almost every renowned maker, but then, in a general sense, what matters is the average quality of his production.
Some makers are more consistent than others in making special guitars.
Barba, Montero, Plazuelo (for mere instance) are well known for their consistence, while other guitar makers can be capable of great guitars as poor ones.

Predictability becomes even a bigger problem with makers/factories with big outputs: Conde, Ramirez, Sanchis etc. as many hands are involved in the process.
I tried absolutely amazing Condes and Condes not worthy a Sanchis 2f ( I mean it for real).
It's not just about Conde: I myself had a brand new Manuel Caceres for a month: a really well made and expensive guitar which I eventually found inferior to way cheaper guitars.

I tried a Romero once and it wasn't as good as I expected; I'm sure there are very good ones outside; in that case the guitar was balanced but quite close to a recent Ramirez. I wasn't lucky with Pedro de Miguel as well.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2018 10:35:42
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Echi

Why do you think I needed ten years to choose mine although I regularly tried what was in Romero's shop? He desperately told me one day I would never buy anything from him...

Most of today's Romero's production is blancas with the ratio being 4-5/1. He currently builds no more than five or six professional guitars a year (my eye on the labels and years) of which two are 'white' blancas, two are 'reddish' blancas and one is a white or reddish negra. BTW I also tried the reddish blanca that you can see in my April 2 post video. A terrific guitar but I was on for a negra...

Now let's play a little game: give your opinions on these two Romero blancas. Which one is the best? (I know it's only a video but the recording is professional):

Number one: 2011 blanca CY/SP





Number two : 2015 blanca CY/SP

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2018 16:23:25
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

IMHO The first one.
Anyway I don’t trust at all such YouTube videos for direct experience.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 1 2018 18:14:42
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3013
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

IMHO The first one.
Anyway I don’t trust at all such YouTube videos for direct experience.


I always wonder how familiar with the instrument a person may be who demonstrates one.

Also, the demonstrators playing style may be different from mine.

Recently a Foro member tried my Ramirez blanca and the Arcangel blanca. He preferred the Ramirez. In fact he sounded better on it. Admittedly the strings on the Ramirez were new and those on the Arcangel were old. I have a warm emotional attachment to the Ramirez. But for me there is not a shadow of doubt that I definitely prefer the Arcangel.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2018 1:48:50
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

The guitars from Arcangel are charmant and obviously very good but in my opinion they are not guitars for everyone or for everything. This is just me obviously.
Other than having a definite character, they also have to be played and pushed in a certain way.
I admit that it was through a meeting with an Arcangel that I decided to sell my reliable Gerundino and started a journey of selling and buying which stopped (hopefully) just an year ago. By chance, after many thoughts, to a different type of guitar.

I agree: the player makes a huge difference.
Anyway I can assure that the people of that shop know very well their stuff and when they present a guitar, they do it in the best possible way.
I for one am a little souspicius when the player uses a capo or the piece entails the 6th string tuned in D: yet you cannot really appreciate things like the pulsacion, the loudness, the overtones, the natural compression etc. by a YouTube video
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2018 10:32:56
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3013
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Echi

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

The guitars from Arcangel are charmant and obviously very good but in my opinion they are not guitars for everyone or for everything. This is just me obviously.
Other than having a definite character, they also have to be played and pushed in a certain way.

...



Indeed. Handing the Arcangel to a classical player ofter gets the reaction--tacit or overt--"What's the big deal?" Played with classical technique it is quiet and dull. Played with a flamenco right hand it is loud and brilliant.

The Ramirez responds sweetly to a classical touch, without much bass. When played flamenco style, treble brilliance and bass power emerge, but not as much as with the Arcangel. Picking up the Ramirez after playing the Arcangel for a while, you have to be careful not to overpower the Ramirez. You can still move over the soundhole and produce a very sweet tremolo.

I once read the Ramon Montoya would have been a great musician in any genre, but Niñp Ricando had to be a flamenco guitarist. You can play some classical pieces on the Ramirez, but the Arcangel has to be a flamenco guitar.

I should add that all of my classicals are better for most classical pieces than the Ramirez blanca.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 2 2018 20:20:19
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

Isn't it often said that what makes a great guitar is its ability to excel in both classical and flamenco playings?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2018 16:43:02
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3013
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

quote:

ORIGINAL: sartorius

Isn't it often said that what makes a great guitar is its ability to excel in both classical and flamenco playings?


Pepe Romero, both father (mainly classical player, one of the few top classical pros who can actually play some flamenco) and son (guitar maker) have said that. Pepe Sr. often plays a Sabicas alegrias or bulerias, quite competently, as an encore on the guitar made by Pepe Jr. that he just used for a classical concert. Mario Escudero is widely quoted having said, "There are not classical guitars and flamenco guitars, just good guitars and bad guitars." One of my favorite Escudero albums was recorded on a Hauser, widely regarded as a classical guitar par excellence.

But my experience has been different.

My most Hauser-like guitar, a '73 spruce/Indian Jose Romanillos, has a pretty good flamenco picado and arpeggio sound, but both the Ramirez and the Arcangel Fernandez far outshine it on rasgueados. The Romanillos rasgueados remind me of Escudero on the Hauser. The Arcangel has really brilliant flamenco picado and arpeggio, but not much tonal variety for classical playing. The Tom Blackshear cedar/Indian has very impressive picado, arpeggio and rasgueado, but far too much sustain for flamenco.

One possibility is that more specialized instruments have been produced since the days when Romero, Sr's and Escudero's tastes were formed. Pepe is 6 1/2 years younger than I, Escudero was 9 years older. My first good guitar was the '67 Ramirez blanca, given to me when I was almost 30 years old. Both Romero and Escudero would have been familiar in their youth with great guitars from an earlier era.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2018 19:05:19
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Is the Arcangel the guitar with the most "flamenco" qualities you've played? By that I mean raspy and percussive with rapidly fading sustain.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2018 22:04:25
 
tri7/5

 

Posts: 547
Joined: May 5 2012
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: sartorius

Isn't it often said that what makes a great guitar is its ability to excel in both classical and flamenco playings?


Pepe Romero, both father (mainly classical player, one of the few top classical pros who can actually play some flamenco) and son (guitar maker) have said that. Pepe Sr. often plays a Sabicas alegrias or bulerias, quite competently, as an encore on the guitar made by Pepe Jr. that he just used for a classical concert. Mario Escudero is widely quoted having said, "There are not classical guitars and flamenco guitars, just good guitars and bad guitars." One of my favorite Escudero albums was recorded on a Hauser, widely regarded as a classical guitar par excellence.

But my experience has been different.

My most Hauser-like guitar, a '73 spruce/Indian Jose Romanillos, has a pretty good flamenco picado and arpeggio sound, but both the Ramirez and the Arcangel Fernandez far outshine it on rasgueados. The Romanillos rasgueados remind me of Escudero on the Hauser. The Arcangel has really brilliant flamenco picado and arpeggio, but not much tonal variety for classical playing. The Tom Blackshear cedar/Indian has very impressive picado, arpeggio and rasgueado, but far too much sustain for flamenco.

One possibility is that more specialized instruments have been produced since the days when Romero, Sr's and Escudero's tastes were formed. Pepe is 6 1/2 years younger than I, Escudero was 9 years older. My first good guitar was the '67 Ramirez blanca, given to me when I was almost 30 year old. Both Romero and Escudero would have been familiar in their youth with great guitars from an earlier era.

RNJ


Always had a hunch that a romanillos would work for flsmenco if lightly built and setup correctly. Sort of like a Miguel Rodriguez they are fine spanish guitars that can blur the lines.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2018 23:17:37
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3013
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to mark74

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark74

Is the Arcangel the guitar with the most "flamenco" qualities you've played? By that I mean raspy and percussive with rapidly fading sustain.


What's "flamenco" is to some extent a matter of taste. The second time I saw Ricardo we had a drink in the bar after his and Sara's gig. He handed me his Conde. I played it for just a few seconds, but I was impressed by the crisp, almost snare drum-like rasgueado, and the "dryness" (very short reverb) of its picado.

Compared to those few seconds on Ricardo's Conde, the Arcangel has a lot more bass and a lot more sustain, but its rasgueados are percussive and brilliant enough to overpower the sustain. It takes a strong right hand, at least for me. My guess is that the Conde would be better for gigging with a microphone and P.A.

A couple of years later I was in Alexandria, Virginia, and had the Arcangel with me. At his gig at La Tasca I asked Ricardo if he wanted to play it. The next day he showed up at my hotel in Old Town with his son. He posted here the cellphone recording of his nice E-minor alegrias. His comment was that the Arcangel was better than the Arcangel negra that he had played at Brune's shop. Earlier he had commented that the negra didn't impress him.

I think it was more than a year later that Ricardo told me his mother (a professional level classical guitarist, who plays a Hauser) had heard the clip of him playing the Arcangel. She said it was the best guitar she had ever heard him play flamenco on, and I ought to give it to him.

When Ramzi was here in Austin, he liked the Ramirez better than the Arcangel. The Ramirez had new strings on it, and was at its best. Ramzi sounded better on it than he did on the Arcangel. Different strokes for different folks.

When I bought it 18 years ago the Arcangel was in absolutely mint condition. Brian Cohen said it had belonged to a collector, and was seldom if ever played. I immediately got offers from Japan for 25% more than I paid for it.

Opinions vary. I like the Arcangel. Some do, some don't.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 6 2018 23:58:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12671
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Richard Jernigan

If you want to compare:



Start at :57


_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 7 2018 14:15:51
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

Lovely piece and playing.
The Arcangel has a fascinating tone.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2018 12:05:34
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Richard Jernigan

The Arcangel sure looks like a gorgeous guitar and Ricardo’s demonstration of it is a pleasure to watch. Great playing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2018 2:18:23
 
sartorius

Posts: 206
Joined: Mar. 7 2017
 

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to sartorius

A Conde stays a Conde. The Arcangel has a more lyrical tone, something that is usually missing with the Conde and the reason why Tomatito and others are playing Reyes for instance.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2018 17:59:59
 
ohjelo

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Nov. 29 2008
 

Rosette Affecting Price (in reply to sartorius

Sorry for reviving this thread.

I'm seeling a lot of Condes being marketed as Paco De Lucia Style, but they are really just using a similar Rosette. That being said, do Rosettes affect pricing/quality on these factory guitars?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2020 23:19:03
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