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Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
rest stroke vs free stroke
One thing I've always wondered is if flamencos only use rest stroke for picado, or if they use it in other cases as well. I have heard that Vicente uses rest strokes for arpeggios. Is there a "rule" or has anyone observed anything in regard to this question?
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Mike, the third finger (a) is used as a rest stroke quite a lot in arprgios where the (a) is picking out a melody or defining a particular beat/note. As for all rest stroke arpegios, I personally haven't heard of that one...
Posts: 134
Joined: Jul. 12 2003
From: Livermore, CA USA
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
One thing I've always wondered is if flamencos only use rest stroke for picado, or if they use it in other cases as well. I have heard that Vicente uses rest strokes for arpeggios. Is there a "rule" or has anyone observed anything in regard to this question?
Thanks!
I've never known or observed any flamenco player ever using anything other than rest stroke for picado. What I have observed is the rest stroke as executed in classical guitar is different from the way it is executed in the picado in flamenco. The flamenco picado is executed with a bit more snap, and has a punchier metallic quality to it. The classical rest stroke sounds out a rounder fuller sounding note when compared to the freestroke which seems to have more ring to it, but I don't notice a major difference in volume. Is this a correct observation? I've never studied classical guitar so I'm not familiar with the discipline.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
No rules. Vicente uses A-M-I arpeggios rest stroke pretty much always (Gitano de Lucia, etc), and Nunez sometimes does picado freestrokes. Paco does a freestroke a-m-i picado in Columbianas as well. It all depends on the musical situation. Never heard a tremolo rest stroke though (except for thumb of course).
Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to eslastra)
Hello Eddie;
As a member of the old school I am trapped in the past. I studied both classical and flamenco and must say that I would first define the various types of picado’s that are possible.
Basically, the classical guitar Picado is different than the flamenco. A popular Picado for Classical Guitar is called the “Unsupported Stroke” or “Golpe sin Apoyo”. The finger strikes the string in a semicircular pattern from the first joint of the finger. The finger after striking the string inscribes a small arc – just enough to clear the next string. It is not very loud and has a pleasing effect for many classical pieces.
The “Supported Stroke” or “Golpe con Apopo” is also used by classical guitarists. It is similar to the above except that the finger comes to rest on the next lowest string. It has more power and is louder.
My favorite is the “Golpe de Martillo” or “Hammer Stroke”. The finger is held straight and comes to rest on the next lowest string. This produces a great deal of volume.
There is a lot more than what I have stated here as far as details of each of the above three examples. In fact there are a few more types of Picado’s that are used.
Differences in guitars and strings also account for variations in sound volume and quality of flamenco and classical guitars, as well as the technique used.
As far as arpeggios are concerned I use both supported and unsupported stroke depending upon what I am doing and the sound I want to produce.
One thing I learned in life is there is no one way to do anything. Do what you enjoy. That is easier after you learn enough to be your own teacher!
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Miguel
I have a feeling that you are asking mostly about the use of rest strokes in arpeggios.
I find A M I rest strokes very usefull in cante libres like Granaina. They give a more rythmical touch in these palos and you can play them very fast.
Ricardo, are you sure that Nuñez doesnt play tremolo rest strokes? I mean he does everything, and sometimes at concert he's tremolo is so violent, that I wonder if he's playing "normal" tremolo.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
Ricardo, are you sure that Nuñez doesnt play tremolo rest strokes? I mean he does everything, and sometimes at concert he's tremolo is so violent, that I wonder if he's playing "normal" tremolo.
Yeah I am sure, it is freestrokes. He really digs in hard doesn't he? I used to think he was just leaning into the mic more or something until I saw it in my face un-amplified. Check out his Encuentro video and he demonstrates it very clearly. The guitar almost can't handle the fortissimo tremolo por Rondena and Granaina. It is all about pushing harder against the thumb which is resting. He also does a brief extended tremolo (bass + amiamiamiami...) in the video, similar to the way Manolo Sanlucar does it. Manolo also has a very strong tremolo like Gerardo if you have ever heard him live.
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
To reach the power level of Nuñez, not only seems impossible, but must be tough for the arm and hand as well. I could imagine develloping a heavy tentenitis if I tried.
I've seen Sanlucar live a couple of years ago. his tremolo was fantastic. Its more even than Nuñez's, but the concert was a bit boring. Maybe he was tired because he made a 4 hours soundcheck!!!!
I havent seen Nuñez video. I think the price is....... expensive!!!!!
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Guest)
It seems that power must be mostly a function of leverage and angle. Because the string is very light, just a tiny piece of nylon, really. It can resist the finger if you push it a certain angle, but if you push it in a certain angle, with the right leverage, then it's almost nothing. Of course, when you factor speed into the equation things must get complicated. It would be fascinating to see Nunez up close to see how he does it. I would like to go to his thing in Sanlucar...I would also love to go to Manolo's thing...
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I know some folks think those vids from Encuentro are pricey, but for what you get w/ Nunez at least, you can't compare to private lessons or going to a concert. It is a steal IMO, and invalueable as a learning tool, reference, and just plain enternainment. But if you THINK you can't learn something or do something, then chances are, you never will.
Miguel, if you ever get a chance you should go. Sanlucar gives a course in Cordoba the week before Gerardo usually so you can hit both. The only thing is the airfare... now that is....expensive!!!
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
No no no.... The air fare is cheap!!!!! You got it all wrong! Just compare with relative prices 10 or 20 years ago, and you'll see its a bargain.
I'm sure I would learn a hell of a lot from any encuentro video, and in the end the price wouldnt be high. Its just so that money is money, and whenever I have some I buy wood or tools, because its my most secure investment. I never bought any Encuentro videos, because I do not have a video, "only" DVD, and Gerardo is not what I want to start with. Es un monstruo . I have seen most of them though, and I agree, they are VERY good.
Posts: 15725
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I mean airfare in July. The euro is killing us too.
I don't want to try to sell you on this Nunez vid, but, just so you know, he shows basic techniques and traditional style falsetas and stuff for the first hour. It is just nice to see them presented from a virtuoso's point of view. The other hour is more like your typical Encuentro vid where he just plays **** nobody could play. Not begginers stuff, but worth seeing at all levels. And as a DVD you can jump around. Herrero's vids are good and informative, but it is something else when you have those exercises backed up by inspiring playing and friendly verbal descriptions. Gerardo never says "you should never play like this...". But he does convincingly show ways people do things differently. Like picado for example.
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Ricardo
This is very interesting info. I didn't know there were a human and and monster part. So this DVD can be used by "normal" players as well... Great... I might even buy it. Gerardo is a very inspiring player, and his tecnique is faboulous.
O. Herrero videos .....ZZZZZZZ....... sometimes, when I watch one, I just feel like sticking my arms into the screen, bash him a few times and telling him to stop being so boring and square.
One of my hopes for this year is: dolar=Euro. Its tough to try to sell to the US with this situation.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: rest stroke vs free stroke (in reply to Guest)
Anders, I don't think that's going to happen, unfortunately. We've got a bit of a mess on our hands over here and it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. Usually after a cycle of boom, there is a bust, and we had an upward swing starting from 1983 to about 1999.
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. I have seen most of them though, and I agree, they are VERY good.
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