Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Buleria?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

Buleria? 
Does anyone know about this other key Buleria is played in? somewhere up the neck, 5th or something?
If so, what are the chord shapes?

Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2004 19:58:49
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
Jim,
I was wondering the same thing. I think it's maybe a drop D (Rondeñas) tuning?
That's why I was asking Kate (to ask Emilio).
Jesus, I'm having enough difficulty coping with plain A ! LOL!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2004 22:00:08
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Ron.M) 
I know Juan Martin has a buleria in Am
Very nice B.T.W.!

Peter

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 21 2004 22:39:58
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
Does anyone know about this other key Buleria is played in? somewhere up the neck, 5th or something?



Hi Jim

I've heard bulerias in several 'keys' apart from bog standard A phrygian. Are you referring to a particular recording? If so could you upload a clip ?

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 22 2004 8:12:41
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
Hi Jon,

There's a key or perhaps might be a transposition of A phrygian up the neck, that has become very popular for playing modern Buleria. I think Ron's not far off when he mentioned the drop to D tuning.
I should know, but don't.
Nunez, Enrique de Melchor, Vicente and PdL all use it now possibly in preference to A phrygian. Lets them get interesting rifs between chord changes. Chords are also 'open' with interesting soundings.????

Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2004 13:28:30
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
Nunez, Enrique de Melchor, Vicente and PdL all use it now possibly in preference to A phrygian. Lets them get interesting rifs between chord changes. Chords are also 'open' with interesting soundings.????


Any example you can think of that I could listen to? I have some PDL and Vicente on CD, but none of the others.

I'm sure I read that some people were playing bulerias in C#, but don't quote me on that! Wacky tunings certainly seem more popular these days - I noticed a few of them in Saura's film.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2004 13:56:30
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
quote:

I'm sure I read that some people were playing bulerias in C#


That's what made me think of the Rondeñas tuning.

The "second" chord (like the Bflat in Bulerias in A), has an open tuning "ring" to it when they play and you can hear the open 6th string sounding.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2004 15:25:27
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
quote:

bulerias in C#,


Jon, Means nothing to me without shapes, but I'm sure you're on the right lines there, that must make a sequence of open chord shapes up around the 5th?

I'll try to find a specific track later.

Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2004 16:31:23
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
PDL plays gitanos andaluces in C# without rondeña tuning and cejilla.
I´ve seen it in a live video with pepe singing.

Henrik
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2004 19:08:15
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
quote:

Any example you can think of that I could listen to?


Try this one Jon

www.btinternet.com/~flamenco/weirdkey.mp3


cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 23 2004 20:27:32
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Buleria? for Ron (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Try this one Jon

www.btinternet.com/~flamenco/weirdkey.mp3


Well Ron, thats a corker!

I just spent an hour or so thikning about this and I really should be doing other things.

First of all, the bulerias does have a 'tonal centre' of A, taking capo as the nut. There are clear remates to A in several places, especially at the beginning and the end.

He is however, using an altered tuning, and he does play 'outside' a lot. By that I mean he is straying outside A phrygian (the usually mode for buleria) and doing a lot of things a jazz player would do. His fondness for playing outside together with the altered tuning give it that 'weird key' sound. [Note: I avoided using the word 'key' above because with music like this the word 'key' ceases to have any useful meaning, and in any case technically speaking the correct 'key' for bulerias is actually F major as A phrygian is the third mode of F. - Lets just say its played por medio ].

Ok, enough theory flim flam, try this:

tune 2nd string down to Bb
tune 6th down to Bb also (yes, I know!)
Capo at 5

opening chords:

0
0
1
0
X
X


3
3
4
3
X
X


widdly bit, then resolves to his main bulerias A chord which he uses a lot:


0
0
2
2
0
X


That ridiculous low 6th string then allows you to play the falseta at 40 seconds in.

He may be altering other strings, but this seems to work when I played with it. The only way to a get a clearer picture of all the strings would be to transcribe it all and see if everything works, which I don't have time to do.

Cheers.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2004 10:14:25
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? for Ron (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
Hi Jon,
Sorry, I didn't mean you to spend a lot of time on it!
Not sure about that tuning though....
It was played with the capo on first fret with much of the fingering done around the middle of the guitar (including the resolving "A" chord), so I think that's what is making you feel the 6th string is tuned really low.
These open tunings are notoriously difficult to pick up by ear.
When I was in my teens I worked out about three different tunings for Bert Jansch's "Black Waterside" and about five for Robert Johnson's blues guitar.
They all seemed to work out, but none entirely satisfactory.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2004 11:11:37
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Buleria? for Ron (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
It was played with the capo on first fret with much of the fingering done around the middle of the guitar (including the resolving "A" chord),


Hmm.. how do you know it was played like that?

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2004 13:40:52
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? for Ron (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
I saw the guy play it Jon.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 29 2004 14:49:51
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: Buleria? for Ron (in reply to Ron.M) 
Are you sure he didn't whip off the capo and put it on fret 5 whilst you weren't looking?

Seriously though, with a known quantity it should be easier to figure out. Altered tunings PLUS capos do make life difficult when it comes to working things out, as you say.

Interesting though, I could have sworn he was pulling off from a Bb to open A on the fifth string (but capoed at 5) - you know that typical buleria thing. And that 6th string sounds so weird when he places that falseta at 40.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2004 11:28:36
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? for Ron (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
quote:

Altered tunings PLUS capos do make life difficult when it comes to working things out, as you say


Yeah...also the fact that he's probably not tuned to concert pitch (440) anyway.
Lot's of variables, hard to "reverse engineer"!
I haven't had a crack at it myself, 'cos I'm still having a hard time with the bog standard stuff. LOL!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 30 2004 20:42:06
 
zata

Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
 

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
quote:

I've heard bulerias in several 'keys' apart from bog standard A phrygian.


Bulería! Thank made my ears perk up

Since bulería is a rhyhm and not a cante, it's played in every imaginable position and key. Even with straightforward phrygian it's up to the guitarist what position he wants to play it in, including the option of altered tuning.

Estela 'Zata'
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2004 18:03:06
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
It's up to the guitarist? Even if the cantaor yells: Se pone en el tre! Si por medio claro, joven!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2004 18:16:31
 
Mark2

Posts: 1872
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
The singer wants a certain absolute pitch-it doesn't matter how the guitarist gets it. In other words, you could put the capo on one and play in Eb or have no capo and play in E and have the same absolute pitch.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2004 19:11:53
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Ron.M) 
quote:

Try this one Jon


Ron, who's playing and where'd you hear it?

Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2004 20:32:59
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? (in reply to zata) 
Estela!
Great to see that you still visit the Forum!
I've been listening mucho to Siguiriyas and Fandangos de Huelva recently and I must say that I see a lot of similarities in rhythmic phrasing to Soleares and Bulerias etc.
It's difficult to explain....
But it's like you can see it all came out of the same big black pot. LOL!
Like the Big Bang if you see what I mean.
Does that make sense? (with obvious exception of the mood dictated by the cante).
It seems if you strip the cante away and are just left with the rhythms and phrasing, then a lot of styles seem to merge with each other, with just some minor changes.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2004 20:34:47
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
quote:

Ron, who's playing and where'd you hear it?


Jim,
I think it's Diego del Morao
I think he's the son of Manuel Morao, the ledgendary Jerez tocaor.
Saw it on Ondajerez.
He seems to play a lot of his stuff in open tunings.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2004 20:39:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
Hi Ron, Richard here. Diego is one of my favorite young players. That stuff is in C# capo 1. Check out the beauty of a falseta on Nina pastori's album, same type of stuff. Here are some things I heard in your clip:

First chord and resolution chord:

E--4--------------4--
B--5--------------6--
G--5--------------7--
D--4--------------6--
A--5--------5-4--4--
E---------4----------

Later he hits this chord to make use of his lowest possible bass note:

E--4-
B--3-
G--4-
D--2-
A--2-
E--0-

And later this part is wicked sounding:

E------------------
B-----------------
G-----------------
D---0----------0--
A------4----4-----
E---------1--------

The key that sounds like Rondena, is actually in D# phrygian. The low E gives the Rondena sound:

E--6--------0------------------------------6-------
B--8--------7--------------------------------------
G--9--------7------------------------------------9-
D--8--------6------------6--------------------8----
A--6--------7----------7---(h)10-7(p)6-----------
E------------0--0(h)10-----------------------------

Merry Christmas!

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2004 21:39:22
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Ricardo) 
Thanks Richard,
I'll try that out.
Yeah Diego is a nice player...I don't think I've heard him play *anything* in a "straight" or "traditional" key.
That's what made me think he was using some sort of open tuning.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2004 11:47:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14828
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
Check out "Jerez Joven por Bulerias". He accompanies various singers, very much in the style of his Daddy.

This C# key has been used by Paco since the 80's, w/ Camaron and Tomatito. "Soniquete" from Zyrab is in that tonality. Also nice is Amigo's "Mandaito". And the 3rd Bulerias in Moraito's video. But I really like what Diego is doing.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 19 2004 19:08:33
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Buleria? (in reply to Ricardo) 
There's a nice interview with Diego del Morao on www.flamenco-world.com

(I got it wrong, I realize now he's the son of Moraito, not Manuel Morao)

On the tiny picture I was watching on Ondajerez he looked a lot older and his playing had real maturity, but he's only 25 or so!
Wow! What do they put in the water down there in Jerez! LOL!

Can't wait to hear a solo album from him, he's a really interesting player.

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2005 16:52:40
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2005 21:56:48
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.