Buleria? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - Buleria?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=12063



Message


Jim Opfer -> Buleria? (Sep. 21 2004 19:58:49)

Does anyone know about this other key Buleria is played in? somewhere up the neck, 5th or something?
If so, what are the chord shapes?

Jim.




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 21 2004 22:00:08)

Jim,
I was wondering the same thing. I think it's maybe a drop D (Rondeñas) tuning?
That's why I was asking Kate (to ask Emilio).
Jesus, I'm having enough difficulty coping with plain A ! LOL!

cheers

Ron




gerundino63 -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 21 2004 22:39:58)

I know Juan Martin has a buleria in Am
Very nice B.T.W.!

Peter




Jon Boyes -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 22 2004 8:12:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
Does anyone know about this other key Buleria is played in? somewhere up the neck, 5th or something?



Hi Jim

I've heard bulerias in several 'keys' apart from bog standard A phrygian. Are you referring to a particular recording? If so could you upload a clip ?

Jon




Jim Opfer -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 23 2004 13:28:30)

Hi Jon,

There's a key or perhaps might be a transposition of A phrygian up the neck, that has become very popular for playing modern Buleria. I think Ron's not far off when he mentioned the drop to D tuning.
I should know, but don't.
Nunez, Enrique de Melchor, Vicente and PdL all use it now possibly in preference to A phrygian. Lets them get interesting rifs between chord changes. Chords are also 'open' with interesting soundings.????

Jim.




Jon Boyes -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 23 2004 13:56:30)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
Nunez, Enrique de Melchor, Vicente and PdL all use it now possibly in preference to A phrygian. Lets them get interesting rifs between chord changes. Chords are also 'open' with interesting soundings.????


Any example you can think of that I could listen to? I have some PDL and Vicente on CD, but none of the others.

I'm sure I read that some people were playing bulerias in C#, but don't quote me on that! [:)] Wacky tunings certainly seem more popular these days - I noticed a few of them in Saura's film.

Jon




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 23 2004 15:25:27)

quote:

I'm sure I read that some people were playing bulerias in C#


That's what made me think of the Rondeñas tuning.

The "second" chord (like the Bflat in Bulerias in A), has an open tuning "ring" to it when they play and you can hear the open 6th string sounding.

cheers

Ron




Jim Opfer -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 23 2004 16:31:23)

quote:

bulerias in C#,


Jon, Means nothing to me without shapes, but I'm sure you're on the right lines there, that must make a sequence of open chord shapes up around the 5th?

I'll try to find a specific track later.

Jim.




duende -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 23 2004 19:08:15)

PDL plays gitanos andaluces in C# without rondeña tuning and cejilla.
I´ve seen it in a live video with pepe singing.

Henrik




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? (Sep. 23 2004 20:27:32)

quote:

Any example you can think of that I could listen to?


Try this one Jon

www.btinternet.com/~flamenco/weirdkey.mp3


cheers

Ron




Jon Boyes -> RE: Buleria? for Ron (Sep. 29 2004 10:14:25)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Try this one Jon

www.btinternet.com/~flamenco/weirdkey.mp3


Well Ron, thats a corker! [:D]

I just spent an hour or so thikning about this and I really should be doing other things.[;)]

First of all, the bulerias does have a 'tonal centre' of A, taking capo as the nut. There are clear remates to A in several places, especially at the beginning and the end.

He is however, using an altered tuning, and he does play 'outside' a lot. By that I mean he is straying outside A phrygian (the usually mode for buleria) and doing a lot of things a jazz player would do. His fondness for playing outside together with the altered tuning give it that 'weird key' sound. [Note: I avoided using the word 'key' above because with music like this the word 'key' ceases to have any useful meaning, and in any case technically speaking the correct 'key' for bulerias is actually F major as A phrygian is the third mode of F. - Lets just say its played por medio [:D]].

Ok, enough theory flim flam, try this:

tune 2nd string down to Bb
tune 6th down to Bb also (yes, I know!)
Capo at 5

opening chords:

0
0
1
0
X
X


3
3
4
3
X
X


widdly bit, then resolves to his main bulerias A chord which he uses a lot:


0
0
2
2
0
X


That ridiculous low 6th string then allows you to play the falseta at 40 seconds in.

He may be altering other strings, but this seems to work when I played with it. The only way to a get a clearer picture of all the strings would be to transcribe it all and see if everything works, which I don't have time to do.

Cheers.

Jon




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? for Ron (Sep. 29 2004 11:11:37)

Hi Jon,
Sorry, I didn't mean you to spend a lot of time on it!
Not sure about that tuning though....
It was played with the capo on first fret with much of the fingering done around the middle of the guitar (including the resolving "A" chord), so I think that's what is making you feel the 6th string is tuned really low.
These open tunings are notoriously difficult to pick up by ear.
When I was in my teens I worked out about three different tunings for Bert Jansch's "Black Waterside" and about five for Robert Johnson's blues guitar.
They all seemed to work out, but none entirely satisfactory. [:D]

cheers

Ron




Jon Boyes -> RE: Buleria? for Ron (Sep. 29 2004 13:40:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
It was played with the capo on first fret with much of the fingering done around the middle of the guitar (including the resolving "A" chord),


Hmm.. how do you know it was played like that?

Jon




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? for Ron (Sep. 29 2004 14:49:51)

I saw the guy play it Jon.

cheers

Ron




Jon Boyes -> RE: Buleria? for Ron (Sep. 30 2004 11:28:36)

Are you sure he didn't whip off the capo and put it on fret 5 whilst you weren't looking?[:D]

Seriously though, with a known quantity it should be easier to figure out. Altered tunings PLUS capos do make life difficult when it comes to working things out, as you say.

Interesting though, I could have sworn he was pulling off from a Bb to open A on the fifth string (but capoed at 5) - you know that typical buleria thing. And that 6th string sounds so weird when he places that falseta at 40.

Jon




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? for Ron (Sep. 30 2004 20:42:06)

quote:

Altered tunings PLUS capos do make life difficult when it comes to working things out, as you say


Yeah...also the fact that he's probably not tuned to concert pitch (440) anyway.
Lot's of variables, hard to "reverse engineer"!
I haven't had a crack at it myself, 'cos I'm still having a hard time with the bog standard stuff. LOL!

cheers

Ron




zata -> RE: Buleria? (Oct. 29 2004 18:03:06)

quote:

I've heard bulerias in several 'keys' apart from bog standard A phrygian.


Bulería! Thank made my ears perk up [:D]

Since bulería is a rhyhm and not a cante, it's played in every imaginable position and key. Even with straightforward phrygian it's up to the guitarist what position he wants to play it in, including the option of altered tuning.

Estela 'Zata'




Miguel de Maria -> RE: Buleria? (Oct. 29 2004 18:16:31)

It's up to the guitarist? Even if the cantaor yells: Se pone en el tre! Si por medio claro, joven!




Mark2 -> RE: Buleria? (Oct. 29 2004 19:11:53)

The singer wants a certain absolute pitch-it doesn't matter how the guitarist gets it. In other words, you could put the capo on one and play in Eb or have no capo and play in E and have the same absolute pitch.




Jim Opfer -> RE: Buleria? (Oct. 29 2004 20:32:59)

quote:

Try this one Jon


Ron, who's playing and where'd you hear it?

Jim.




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? (Oct. 29 2004 20:34:47)

Estela!
Great to see that you still visit the Forum!
I've been listening mucho to Siguiriyas and Fandangos de Huelva recently and I must say that I see a lot of similarities in rhythmic phrasing to Soleares and Bulerias etc.
It's difficult to explain....
But it's like you can see it all came out of the same big black pot. LOL!
Like the Big Bang if you see what I mean.
Does that make sense? (with obvious exception of the mood dictated by the cante).
It seems if you strip the cante away and are just left with the rhythms and phrasing, then a lot of styles seem to merge with each other, with just some minor changes.

cheers

Ron




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? (Oct. 29 2004 20:39:04)

quote:

Ron, who's playing and where'd you hear it?


Jim,
I think it's Diego del Morao
I think he's the son of Manuel Morao, the ledgendary Jerez tocaor.
Saw it on Ondajerez.
He seems to play a lot of his stuff in open tunings.

cheers

Ron




Ricardo -> RE: Buleria? (Dec. 15 2004 21:39:22)

Hi Ron, Richard here. Diego is one of my favorite young players. That stuff is in C# capo 1. Check out the beauty of a falseta on Nina pastori's album, same type of stuff. Here are some things I heard in your clip:

First chord and resolution chord:

E--4--------------4--
B--5--------------6--
G--5--------------7--
D--4--------------6--
A--5--------5-4--4--
E---------4----------

Later he hits this chord to make use of his lowest possible bass note:

E--4-
B--3-
G--4-
D--2-
A--2-
E--0-

And later this part is wicked sounding:

E------------------
B-----------------
G-----------------
D---0----------0--
A------4----4-----
E---------1--------

The key that sounds like Rondena, is actually in D# phrygian. The low E gives the Rondena sound:

E--6--------0------------------------------6-------
B--8--------7--------------------------------------
G--9--------7------------------------------------9-
D--8--------6------------6--------------------8----
A--6--------7----------7---(h)10-7(p)6-----------
E------------0--0(h)10-----------------------------

Merry Christmas!

Ricardo




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? (Dec. 16 2004 11:47:27)

Thanks Richard,
I'll try that out.
Yeah Diego is a nice player...I don't think I've heard him play *anything* in a "straight" or "traditional" key.
That's what made me think he was using some sort of open tuning.

cheers

Ron




Ricardo -> RE: Buleria? (Dec. 19 2004 19:08:33)

Check out "Jerez Joven por Bulerias". He accompanies various singers, very much in the style of his Daddy.

This C# key has been used by Paco since the 80's, w/ Camaron and Tomatito. "Soniquete" from Zyrab is in that tonality. Also nice is Amigo's "Mandaito". And the 3rd Bulerias in Moraito's video. But I really like what Diego is doing.

Ricardo




Ron.M -> RE: Buleria? (Jan. 20 2005 16:52:40)

There's a nice interview with Diego del Morao on www.flamenco-world.com

(I got it wrong, I realize now he's the son of Moraito, not Manuel Morao)

On the tiny picture I was watching on Ondajerez he looked a lot older and his playing had real maturity, but he's only 25 or so!
Wow! What do they put in the water down there in Jerez! LOL!

Can't wait to hear a solo album from him, he's a really interesting player.

cheers

Ron




Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 20 2005 21:56:48)

[Deleted by Admins]




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET