RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Full Version)

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Adam -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 14:27:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob
What I personally dislike of Ottmar is the “emptiness’ of musicality, texture, almost of any creative effort. It is –in simple terms- the “fast food’ of music, exploiting the uncultivated taste of masses now accustomed to “fast” and no longer able to discern and savor spices and condiments.


Just out of curiosity, how much of Ottmar's music do you know?



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 15:20:39)

quote:

First of all, Aeulus, accept my apology if I inadvertently offended you. It was not my intention at all. I –of all people- am quite at odds with the strict rules of flamenco and am admittedly rather simpleminded about the all phenomenon and culture, enjoying solely unaccompanied guitar work, not the Cante nor the dance. Hence, I am not policing the world to chase the witches flying astray of tradition. My own music leaves a lot to be desired from a strictly flamenco prospective.


Well I wasn't really offended, just bemused. For myself, I find the guitar without the Cante boring except for Amigo because of his masterful left hand and have been applying myself to his compositions. The compas seems to have something of an abstract appeal or its mastery a substitute for imagination. A kind of secret knowledge, that separates the elite from the commoner. The inner mysteries of the priestly cast, sanctified my the smoke and wine of the dark rituals yelding the ecstasy of the, dare I say it, duende.



gj Michelob -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 16:14:45)

quote:

Just out of curiosity, how much of Ottmar's music do you know?


Regrettably, Ottmar and the Kings represented my wife answer to my newly found passion for flamenco... I have not learned titles of songs and albums, but "had" to hear lots of them both[:D][:D][:D]
I understand however that his earlier work was not so elevator-like; never managed to find anything I like... if you wish to educate and recommand any link, it would be more compelling than many of these words we write here.

Nice post, Aeulus. 'loved your description of Amigo's music and you hit the nail on the head with it to explain the narrow scope of my appreciation for this style. It all started with Amigo, and now extended to a variety of solos, yet solo guitar -so far....



Adam -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 16:24:42)

His older stuff (i.e. the popular stuff, which you'll hear in restaurants) is nice, but I find myself coming more back to the newer material. I would recommend his more recent album "The Scent of Light"... really lovely album. Another recent album, "La Semana", is also quite good. "The Hours Between Night + Day" is also a fantastic work, and that's a lot closer chronologically to his "older stuff". Honestly, it's that one album - "Nouveau Flamenco" - that has all the popular hits, and the unfortunate name which riled up all the flamencos. But when the criticisms are leveled at that, they end up ignoring 20 years of other work.

Anyway, those are my recommendations. I don't expect many people here to like it - if I listened to flamenco before I listened to Ottmar (rather than the other way around) I expect it would get on my nerves too, and I don't expect to find another "Ottmar-esque" artist who I'll be able to enjoy. But, I don't like watching e-mails come into my inbox accusing me of enjoying "fast food music" so hopefully I can at least work on that [:D]



at_leo_87 -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 17:59:58)

yes, can somebody post some links of what you consider to be his better works? i'd like to give this guy a listen.



gj Michelob -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 18:02:00)

quote:

I don't expect many people here to like it


here is an un-plugged session... [:D]




Adam -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 18:49:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

yes, can somebody post some links of what you consider to be his better works? i'd like to give this guy a listen.


Well, I hate to give myself a plug but - oh, who am I kidding, of course I don't [:D] I've played quite a bit of Ottmar old and new on my radio show. There's lot of flamenco, too, while you're waiting for Ottmar to come on [;)] It's at http://www.flamencoandarabicpop.com/ with all the old shows archived.



at_leo_87 -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 21:27:46)

quote:

here is an un-plugged session...



no offense to ottmar fans and i dont mean to sound snobby. but is that. . . is that a bulerias? man, that G to E pull off on the high e string. ouch. my head.

quote:


Well, I hate to give myself a plug but - oh, who am I kidding, of course I don't I've played quite a bit of Ottmar old and new on my radio show. There's lot of flamenco, too, while you're waiting for Ottmar to come on It's at http://www.flamencoandarabicpop.com/ with all the old shows archived.


imo, plugs are great as long as they're relevant. you get to advertise and readers are informed of something new. win win. that's pretty cool that you have your own radio show. i'll check it out.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 21:41:53)

i listened to it for two minutes, then i had to close the window in frustration...he might have a chance to win the beginners' challenge here...i'm lost for words...sorry guys, that was awful...



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 2:34:49)

quote:

Well, I hate to give myself a plug but - oh, who am I kidding, of course I don't I've played quite a bit of Ottmar old and new on my radio show. There's lot of flamenco, too, while you're waiting for Ottmar to come on It's at http://www.flamencoandarabicpop.com/ with all the old shows archived.


Thanks for the link to your program. I already downloaded Under the Rose and had posted a link to it earlier in this thread. Ottmar offers the album for free with a plea for a donation to a Iraqi relief fund so he's not all bad. I especially liked Return to Andalusia and the vocal and purchased the Iraqi's disc but sadly there were no vocals on it.



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 2:41:39)

quote:

Nice post, Aeulus. 'loved your description of Amigo's music and you hit the nail on the head with it to explain the narrow scope of my appreciation for this style. It all started with Amigo, and now extended to a variety of solos, yet solo guitar -so far....



Thanx for that but it is Aeolus, Latin for the Greek god of wind, or keeper of the winds.



Ricardo -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 6:31:19)

quote:

The compas seems to have something of an abstract appeal or its mastery a substitute for imagination. A kind of secret knowledge, that separates the elite from the commoner. The inner mysteries of the priestly cast, sanctified my the smoke and wine of the dark rituals yelding the ecstasy of the, dare I say it, duende.


[&o][&:][8|]

Well, I know you are defending a certain artist you like that was getting slammed, but man come on. You know that for the majority of people that are true flamencos, it is their WHOLE WAY OF LIFE, not just something they do on sundays. And for some gitanos, to belittle the importance of their art, their compas or duende, like it is just hokus pokus bs, they would probably curse or kill. [8D]

Ricardo



gj Michelob -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 6:34:39)

quote:

i had to close the window in frustration...he might have a chance to win the beginners' challenge here...i'm lost for words...sorry guys, that was awful...


I immediately switched to Pepe Habichuela's Aires de Levante to disinfect... [:'(]

"de gustibus non est disputandum" [to stay in tune with aeulus' liguistic choice] sed flamenco est !!



Stoney -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 7:11:36)

quote:

and with a lot more reverence for the style.


Quoting myself here and clarifying. Reverence meaning respect. I am not one to throw myself on the ground screaming "I'm not worthy" for any artist. Haven't been since I stopped listening to KISS in the 70's. (12 yrs. old then)

My point is that there is a fast track method of learning which I find cheats the player out of really getting any style. If you want to play blues you need to pick up some B.B. King, Muddy Waters and other originators of the style. If you just copy all of Stevie Ray Vaughn's licks you will never have the authority nor your own style. Same goes for the Paco De Lucia clones - did they pay their dues by learning the traditional stuff as well? Obviously Ottmar took and even shorter and less respectful route, he just ignored 99% of the style completely.

Any why would anyone want to play exactly what Artist X played? The saying goes that imitation is the greatest form of flattery. But they aren't really imitating the artist, they are imitating the artist's work (does that add something to the artist? I think not - just check out the numerous versions of the Toques Flamenco pieces on youtube - not really any compliment to Paco Pena IMHO - more like an embarrassment I'd say)

If you really want to pay tribute to your favorite artist, do what they did, learn it the right way, learn and adapt and innovate yourself. That's what they did and IMHO is the only true path to artistic NIRVANA. That's respect and reverence.

As far as I know, to play a variations on a standard falsetta that is commonly associated with another guitarist is looked down on in Spain. Seems fair to me.

Everyone knows Bette Midler, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson. Now who are the Bette Midler, Frank Sinatra, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson imitators? No one knows - No one cares.

No one is under any obligation to follow this philosophy and if you are satisfied doing it the other way, so be it. There will always be someone to tell you you are great.

This is the philosophy I have tried to live up to in the 30 yrs since I got my first guitar. Personally I am happy with my own artistic growth although I am not a phenomenal guitarist at least I have the satisfaction of having gotten where I am by hard work, not by standing on someone else's shoulders.

In closing, I prefer determination to talent any day. Talent is often wasted.

Stoney



Adam -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 8:37:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

Well, I hate to give myself a plug but - oh, who am I kidding, of course I don't I've played quite a bit of Ottmar old and new on my radio show. There's lot of flamenco, too, while you're waiting for Ottmar to come on It's at http://www.flamencoandarabicpop.com/ with all the old shows archived.


Thanks for the link to your program. I already downloaded Under the Rose and had posted a link to it earlier in this thread. Ottmar offers the album for free with a plea for a donation to a Iraqi relief fund so he's not all bad. I especially liked Return to Andalusia and the vocal and purchased the Iraqi's disc but sadly there were no vocals on it.


Oh yeah? I didn't see you'd posted it. Under the Rose is a cool little album - obviously a lot of folks here will dislike it (it makes strong use of melody, oh noes), but I think the idea that he offers it for free might at least run against the idea that he's some money-grubbing "fast food" artist who doesn't care about music, or something.

In the end, music is music is music. Ricardo, I get that flamenco is for many a way of life, but that doesn't mean any music which takes pieces from flamenco without paying "full respect" is garbage. One doesn't have to be either all in or all out with flamenco. It's music, and either it's good or it's not good, regardless of how flamenco it is.



mark indigo -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 8:38:39)

to me this is like asking rock fans what they think of.... oh, i don't know... britney spears or someone...

if someone came from outer space and never heard anything else they would probably think britney rocks, but to the average fan of iron maiden and metallica, britney rocks not!!!

PLUS there are probably at least a dozen people on this forum who can play a better bulerias than this




Adam -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 8:42:43)

Mark, the problem is viewing that as a bulería. Yeah, it vaguely uses the bulería compás, but I'm not going to be comparing it to "El Tempúl" any time soon. They aim at different things, they have different purposes. It's comparing apples and oranges.

Let's imagine an alternate universe in which Britney is actually a respectable musician and not some pop tool [:D] In that universe, then while Britney might not rock, "rock" isn't always synonymous with "good".

EDIT: Alright, my point is basically this: there exists good music which is not flamenco. Ottmar does not play flamenco. Therefore it's possible for Ottmar to play good music, and saying "oh, that's not a good bulería" or "he doesn't have a good understanding of compás" is a pretty silly argument against the quality of the music. He uses flamenco techniques and, occasionally, forms/rhythms to supplement an entirely different type of music. You can complain that that's "disrespectful", but it doesn't make the stuff bad.



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 9:13:20)

quote:

Oh yeah? I didn't see you'd posted it. Under the Rose is a cool little album - obviously a lot of folks here will dislike it (it makes strong use of melody, oh noes), but I think the idea that he offers it for free might at least run against the idea that he's some money-grubbing "fast food" artist who doesn't care about music, or something.


Yeah! It's on page #1 of this thread. But I doubt anyone here checked it out. Might need disinfection afterward. But there is no disputing taste, and the argument that Ottmar is a second rate guitarist or a composer of little skill means little as there is no objective way of measuring this. Frankly the sacred falsetas just seem like so much noodling to me and make sense only in conjunction with the cante.



mark indigo -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 12:44:33)

quote:

there exists good music which is not flamenco. Ottmar does not play flamenco


it's a flamenco forum; the thread is "what do you think of ottmar?"

why ask flamenco's what they think of ottmar?



joseglez -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 17:27:54)

A little irony here about the YouTube video; these are bulerias, not bulerías. See my point?

Never mind.

(Please drop the accent in Tempul. Pardon me for being such an @$$, it's just to let you know that it is not correct. I do make a lot of grammatic errors in English every day.)



JasonMcGuire -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 25 2009 23:17:19)

Here is a rumba I recorded with Ottmar's current 2nd guitarist Stephen Duros....

http://www.ottmarliebert.com/diary/?cat=61


.... I think Ottmar is a guy who accidently found some fame and a lot of people like to give they guy grief about using the term flamenco to describe his own music. I don't care for his music myself. If he had never called his thing Nuevo Flamenco it would be a non issue.... just pretend he never called his stuff that and move on....

I do agree with ToddK...... the stuff is EXTREMELY shallow. Shallow always sells better than deep.



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 26 2009 2:44:52)

Well Ottmar is doing a decent job on some HVL in the soundcheck Stephen recorded. Prelude #3. But the descending runs are marked dolorido



uffesteenberg -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 30 2009 6:27:49)

Ottmar Liebert? Gimme a break...
Comparing O.L. to any half decent flamenco guitarist is like comparing spam to jamón serrano.

True, his music could still be awesome...but it just isn't. In my opinion not even within the genre.



Arash -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 30 2009 6:47:05)

the same old discussion again [&:]



Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Dec. 4 2009 12:22:32)

quote:

Just the other night I was on the treadmill and Madonna's "Give it 2 Me" came on, I almost threw the water bottle at the screen. Partly for the name, mostly it was Madonna, though...


Madonna is gorgeous!! Nothing against her please! [:-]



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bugeyed -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Dec. 4 2009 17:53:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uffesteenberg

Ottmar Liebert? Gimme a break...
Comparing O.L. to any half decent flamenco guitarist is like comparing spam to jamón serrano.

True, his music could still be awesome...but it just isn't. In my opinion not even within the genre.

Ok, let me see if I have this right......... a half decent flamenco guitarist would be the Spam, right? [:D]



Stoney -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Jan. 4 2010 10:36:44)

OK, so I just discovered this the other day and IMHO the mere fact that the guy has the audacity to record and sell this means he is due for another turn on the rack.



Ottmar playing SOLO psuedo flamenco guitar. Now I have in the past stated that he has recorded a few things that were not exactly horrible. I'd still love to jam with his group as I think they are much better than given credit for but......

You can hear previews of the tracks here.

Ottmar's One Guitar

I'm not impressed. And he claims this was 70% improvised. Rubbish.

Stoney

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Ron.M -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Jan. 4 2010 11:37:18)

quote:

And he claims this was 70% improvised. Rubbish.


Exactly... who is he trying to kid?

This is obviously 100% improvised IMO...

It's just one long, boring piece chopped into 13 segments at $0.99 each.

(or buy two boring tracks and get a third boring track free..)

cheers,

Ron



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