RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Full Version)

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aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 5:40:22)

I wrote censured not censored. And maybe Paco is poaching on the gypsy legacy. Perhaps it can be said that only those who have suffered oppression can truly express the art of the cante jondo.

I would think so to, although most of them are no "real flamenco players", ie non-gipsy.

Well then what do they have to complain of? I wonder if the gypsys complain that the non-gypsy performers cutting into their income. that's what I'm trying to get at; why the anger.



Adam -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 5:56:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz
I guess until Ottmar doesnt change in this regard (its not only one album)


It isn't? Because I've been following the man for a while and I've never once heard him call his music flamenco (have seen him, on several occasions, emphatically state he's not playing flamenco), and have only seen the label used on his first album. From 19-frickin-89. Just saying, it seems pretty unfair to put something on the artist because of the way his fans perceive his music. It seems like you have this idea, and are just sort of assuming that it's true, then letting it shape your opinions. Whatever suits you, man.

And I find this sad because I think there are actually people here who would enjoy his music (those crazy folks who can enjoy music besides flamenco, that is), but because of this vitriol in the flamenco community just assume that he's worthless. He's one of the finest musicians I listen to (and, fwiw, the reason I'm into flamenco) so I find some of the suggestions here just ridiculous.

Here's a thought, and I'm just throwing this out there: I'd bet that the majority of people here who call his music "cheesy elevator music" or "department store music" haven't actually listened to all that much of his music. Just an idea I had.



XXX -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 6:19:48)

ramparts, please read what i quoted from his homepage. Do you really want to sell the idea that he has absolutely no influence on what is published on his page? Its all the fans who perceive him wrongly? This is the quote: "Liebert, who has incorporated his own innovative ideas into the vocabulary of flamenco—bringing electric bass, synthesizer, electronics, drum kit, and more into the mix".

The reason you are into flamenco is not Ottmar. He is the coincidence that make you look further, to investigate. Just like seeing a flamenco show by coincidence, or having friends that do flamenco by coincidence. The reason you are into is your taste. I was very much into the Trio stuff (Pdl, Meola, McL.). Since i played with fingers and Paco was the only one with fingers technique, I investigated further about his stuff. After listening to his flamenco recordings, i got into flamenco. But the trio stuff was not the reason i liked flamenco.

Anyways, this topic had too much of my attention anyway. If you think he is a fine musician, fine. Each his own i guess. I don't think he is worthless, unless you have a flamenco point of view. I wont argue why [&:] And i also wont argue about the quality of his music, which was never a topic for me.



XXX -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 6:33:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus
Well then what do they have to complain of? I wonder if the gypsys complain that the non-gypsy performers cutting into their income.


Yeah i mean, in the end they are the real players, meanwhile everybody else is just a fake because they're not gipsy, right?



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 7:13:08)

quote:

Yeah i mean, in the end they are the real players, meanwhile everybody else is just a fake because they're not gipsy, right?


Well maybe lacking in authenticity. But maybe flamenco has strayed so far from its roots it no long matters. So why the attitude on Liebert.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 8:35:44)

Deniz, that's the very same road i took here :)



joseglez -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 9:25:16)

He is not for my taste, that's why I will not listen to him. In my opinion, he fakes the flamenco sound by playing too close to the bridge all the time and I don't hear much dynamics in his playing. The feeling is like when I hear a non-Spanish speaking person talk in Spanish. Doesn't sound sincere, and for me it's kind of annoying.

Listen to Tonino from the Gipsy Kings, he has a lot of dynamics though most of their music is commercial. He can switch from being very agressive to very mellow in a solo. Although he is not the absolute flamenco virtuoso there is something about his playing that tickles me.

About Jorge Strunz, well, for me the guy is a poet.



Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 9:32:17)

What a trash-talking thread.... Just grab a beer and preach your "ideas"...



Ricardo -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 10:11:22)

True majority of aficionados and flamencos don't really care at all about ottmar good or bad. Simply not a flamenco so who cares?

I on the other hand have a different view. I encountered Ottmar early in my learning of flamenco. I was buying ANYTHING that was advertised as such. Back then Ottmar was advertised, in magazines and music stores as a new but top notch FLAMENCO GUITARIST.

I bought his album cuz the printed cover stated he was to join the ranks of other flamenco master such as SABICAS and PACO DE LUCIA. Yes, they actually used those names on the album cover, it was more than a dedication TOO paco.

So as I said before it made me acually ANGRY and I sold the disc back to the store. Sorry if that offends any fans, but I honestly felt cheated, and no other musician I can think of ever has done that to me. It is hard for me to get past that, but I gave the guy 2 more chances. I read his article where he said "whoa is me, Paco doesn't like me....all I ever was was a fan and a rock player and wanted to pay tribute...." BS. He goes on in the same article to describe flamenco playing techniques, guitars and strings etc as if he was a true master of the style.

Now the 3rd chance I gave him, I bought his DVD to see if he improved. I recognized he could infact to a decent picado, his strumming not so good, but the thing really got to me was how MUCH he held back his playing.....it actually makes me even more mad to see that. Just deliberate light and fluffy. I feel the same about many singers that don't let it out. It really gets on my nerves and I soon after grab my guitar and go nuts on the thing, or crank my car stereo and belt out along with some CDs to get it off my chest.

Now comparing to strunz. Well, not Farah, but STRUNZ it is clear from his playing he is a legit flamenco player. His sound, and feeling coming out. He first admits that his group does NOT play flamenco, and no bulerias or Tangos labels, LIKE OTTMAR DOES!!!!! Sure it can be said he and Farah OVER PLAY quite a bit, but for me that is way better then underplaying. That is just MY opinion of course, and these things are just to taste.

I have nothing against ANYONE that loves and respects ottmar, or whoever. I can only speak for myself and the way I feel when I perceive music. I think everything has some value, at least for the artist himself, or he would not do anything. And that is enough for it to be valid. But the idea that there is envy or whatever of popularity and that is what makes people mad, that is not a fair generalization. To me Paco is WAY more popular world wide, and also a great artists, so why would HE get mad at ottmar cuz of envy???? [:D][:D][:D]

Anyway, listen on guys, to whatever you like. Ottmar IS a flamenco player, as he makes use of flamenco palos in his compositions. The problem is he does not really do a fair job interpreting them, and should have more respect for the art form if he loves it so much, to either do it justice, or don't do it.

Ricardo



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 10:18:38)

Ottmar's view of the sitution;

JJ: I would imagine that Paco De Lucia, and Paco Pena are more popular than ever due to you!

O: Oh, yeah. We have had arguments about that, and Paco has been very outspoken saying that every kid in the street in Spain is a better guitarist than me. He talks badly about me, and I have never said a bad word about him, and I dedicated an album to him. Yet, his own record company three years back said “After the repopularization of Flamenco Guitar in America due to Ottmar Liebert, and Strunz & Farah, we now present ...Paco” , he’s using my name for sales & marketing , which I don’t mind, and then bashing me, which I do have a problem with.



gato -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 13:25:20)

Something happened a while back on the foro and I almost puked blood so I got off and decided to come back! It's been swell doin' my own thing and having it my own way without worrying about this website, and no, I am not a controll freak, but I do have this to say about Ottmar Liebert:

So he isn't puro, and he does his own thing, and that I respect, but it seems that a lot of people think that he has sold out to the common marketplace, and that always means either of two things or both, he is so totally in it for the money, or he is doing what he is told, but like I say I don't hear a lot but negativity so I am totally turned off by the situation, but you must admit he carved out a nitche, and that is great. You see it's all what we have enthusiasm for so it's not who is right or who is wrong here, it's all about personal taste, and we do make our own choices or at least we are supposed to.

I have my own tastes in music and in the flamenco but I keep them to myself, and like I say a lot of people get something out of his music and I think that is ok, we all listen to what we prefer and we all have that right. Music is music, and of course there are people who really sacrifice a lot to bring authentic flamenco to the masses. There is a lot of talk and that's all it is, talk. So I said it but still, I wish there weren't so many people into pseudo purism for the sake of ego, and maybe I would have herd more of Ottmar's music without the cheap negativity so I would know what to say, otherwise I just don't have any point of view whatsoever.
Gary



Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 14:32:36)

Thats a common thing.... The media doesn´t know so much about what they are informing about.
The bad thing is, they are the link between the artists and the audience..... So the artists are depended on the **** they are writing and talking... What a mess.



gato -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 17:17:59)

Here's a curve for yeh, in the world of guitar players does anyone ever mention all of the great Dobro players out there? At least in the flamenco it's a lot about Paco, and I respect him and his work, but the criteria for judgement of players in the world of music is mainly subjective opinion, based on the frenzy of people who all seem to agree, and do their listening afterward, without really seeing that the scope of the music is all fame oriented, and when the snowball get's rolling it gets bigger and bigger.

That is never so with rare instruments such as the Dobro or Dobro players, or any odd kind of music being recorded, and now that the flamenco is well known around the world, well you get the idea. I know that is kind of well, stretching the arguement about Paco but it does at least give it an extra kind of dimension.

People follow, and you could get along enjoying the flamenco without records, and videos. And what people say means so much sometimes more than the actual music.

I myself don't worship Paco, and I don't think that I ever will because I am so immersed in to what I am doing which I don't think will be of mention to a lot of people, but I do enjoy the classical guitar being played when I hear it, and it doesn't have to be grandiose. I think a lot of flamenco is fine just the way it is without superstardom of any kind. That to me is the state of the art, and I can enjoy alot that I do hear, and it is within my comfort zone to admit that, even if it's someone not to many people know of.

To me flamenco without stardom is the central nervous system of the flamenco and no one artist can do without it. It brings a depth of expression and joy for the art form with or without Paco. You either see it that way or you are addicted to your record collection, and that is all about knowing what you want in life. You can enjoy almost anything, and it would be reasonably said that you couldn't enjoy a lot more than you could fathom without being completely honest to yourself about it, and letting go of the frenzy and hype.
Gary



bugeyed -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 18:54:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joseglez

snip The feeling is like when I hear a non-Spanish speaking person talk in Spanish. Doesn't sound sincere, and for me it's kind of annoying.

snip

I can't believe you said that!



kozz -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 23:00:37)

Crap or no-crap. this guy is making money and laughing at all of us.

Personally I do not care if he is using the word flamenco, and if you care it is only out of envy.
It is VERY easy not-to-listen to his music, and continue buying albums which you do like!



Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 22 2009 1:08:22)

Well, Im for instance not only interested in flamenco guitar because it sounds nice... A critical point for me is also the "woa-effect" when blessed players nail difficult rocking falsetas for example. Thats also the reason why Im not interested in classic guitar.. It doesnt move any feelings inside of me... its just boring (with some exceptions) . And because there are flamenco guitarists who are much better than others and more known than others ...there are of course stars. And they deserve it.

I have the feeling that the classic guitar world is more like china. No individuals allowed, whereas flamenco is like a continuos rebellion. There is so much going on and you can participate just with bringing out 2 note rumbas and everybody talks about you... In the end a good commercial. When everybody hacks on somebody.... others will check out what they are talking about and .....Otti gets more popular.. haha...



minordjango -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 22 2009 3:19:07)

quote:

the classic guitar world is more like china. No individuals allowed, whereas flamenco is like a continuos rebellion.


i like that, and i have to say yor 100% on the mark, mind you its The governements fault not the people of china.

more people cross the DMZ (nth korea) than play flamenco in china.

I agree with Kozz and el gato ,well put . must say people like Juan Martin and even D.koster(i heard some negative things about them.........i personally feel there is some great information in their method books , articulate and concise.

i was jst slistening to pepe romero playa a petenera from his "flamenco album" i like it , i sometimes yearn for a little more melodius (or dynamic contrast) .
does anyone here like the works of say Emilio.Pujol, sainz de la maza , f.m torroba ??
they are inspired by the art of flamenco yet write some cools stuff IMO.

also (my 4 bob worth here!.
dylans , Bob subterraneab sick blues is that blues ?
steve stevens Flamenco piece .
yngwie malmsteens flamenco devil ??
tuck andress uses flamenco techniques?

point is lets not try to be too puristy! about it , just enjoy share ideas, which everyone has done , but maybe hold back some harsh comments, enjoy the fact we can all chat and play guitar!! as we like

peace MD
django reindhardt (echoes of spain ??)



gj Michelob -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 22 2009 5:35:58)

quote:

Ottmar was advertised, in magazines and music stores as a new but top notch FLAMENCO GUITARIST.
I bought his album cuz the printed cover stated he was to join the ranks of other flamenco master such as SABICAS and PACO DE LUCIA. Yes, they actually used those names on the album cover, it was more than a dedication TOO paco.
So as I said before it made me acually ANGRY and I sold the disc back to the store


While cutting through my finger, last summer in Italy, the Surgeon told the nurse that they had to be extremely careful in treating me, “on the one hand because the patient is an American lawyer -he said- and on the other hand because he is a flamenco player. These musicians are virtuosos of the guitar” he declared. Then he paused, “who is that great flamenco musician, I have a few of his CDs?” I replied by enunciating slowly ‘the’ holy names of Paco de Lucia, Pena, Amigo, Tomatito.
He interrupted me, when the name came to mind… I was disappointed but not surprised.

“Flamenco influenced elevator-music” I thought, but was in position to contradict the man holding a knife over my finger’s delicate destiny.

Repeating the same six-note-phrase over a synthesized three-note-melody while distant percussions knock a most elementary rhythm, is elevator music. Yes phrases are borrowed from flamenco traditional music, but are kidnapped form the story they formed and stripped of any character, emotion and depth. There is a huge market for elevator, lounge and SPA’s music, it feeds on an assortment of styles, from blues to classical, from rock to country, and yes our dear Flamenco, of course. Most musicians who play and record it, are fine musicians who did not make it in their respective genre, but made a living, or a fortune at times, selling what the commoners enjoy. Simplified, undemanding, inoffensive… bland… dull…duh…

Ultimately it settles with what made Ricardo angry: misleading information and labeling… if it is not Brazilian, say it is Caviuna, for Pete’s sake.



Djreisat -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 22 2009 6:14:15)

quote:

puked blood


totally METAL!!!



Djreisat -> [Deleted] (Nov. 22 2009 6:15:18)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 22 2009 6:16:04



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 22 2009 6:16:47)

quote:

selling what the commoners enjoy


So I'm a commoner. Is that bad? I have several of his CDs and enjoy playing them on my computer whilst surfing the net. Did some one say snobbery? [8|]
The irony is that flamenco is the art of an underclass if there ever was one!

BTW, if your are in NYC next month you might want to catch Ottmar doing a benefit
.
http://www.digitaldharma.com/app/webroot/previewevent/



cathulu -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 22 2009 18:11:32)

Funny enough, I went out for dinner last night with some friends, and at the restaurant, they were playing Ottmar Liebert!

And you know what, as it was playing and in my partial drunken stupor I started thinking of this thread.

And what I realised was that Ottmar was perfect for the situation in the restaurant. Simple melodies that sounded very nice, not to busy or too high tempo. Perfect for background conversation and wine and food with friends. Elevator music perhaps, but it was perfect for the occasion.



Ron.M -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 23 2009 11:37:07)

Cathulu,

Art and Artists and Artistry finally went out of fashion around the mid 90's IMO..

Now there is only "content" and "content providers"...

So there's nothing really to judge here IMO.


cheers,

Ron



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 23 2009 13:20:46)

It's the sound of the plucked string. Doesn't matter in what context if you love the sound. I heard Leo Kottke on a radio broadcast say you could drop a guitar on the floor and it would sound great.



Stoney -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 7:26:08)

quote:

Perhaps it can be said that only those who have suffered oppression can truly express the art of the cante jondo.


After George W. wouldn't that make anyone on the planet eligible?

Anyway, on another note, maybe what offends so many people is the following. Let's say you are a white guy from the deep dark wilderness of Canada, you figure you get a guitar, strum a few chords, sing a few heart-breaking country tunes, head to the big city and make it big. Millions roll in and you move to Nashville. Ok, so it's a long shot right. Million to one.


But it turns out that you HATE country music so you get an electric guitar and learn to play the blues. But since you're not black, or from Chicago or Texas and since the blues market is much smaller than the country market you figure your chances are 25 million to one.

Jazz? 50 million to one.

So what are the chances of makiing it in the Flamenco world? Plus, considering the difficulty level of the music vs. the size of the Market for it, there is really only two reasons for playing this kind of music (the first is standard in any form of music) 1. To impress chicks and 2. For personaly musical and artistic satisfaction.

Then along comes Ottmar, preverts and prostitutes the style, homogonyzes it for the mASSES, and sells millions. Who can blame real Flamencos and Flamenco fans for being disgusted?

Stoney

PS. Why is it authentic Gypsy Music when Gypsys play Pure Flamenco and it's commercial crap when real Gypsies play Rumbas a la Gypsy Kings? Did it never occur to anyone that maybe THOSE particular Gypsies from that Particular area just happen to play those particular styles more? Not any less authentic until they commercialize it to death.



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 11:08:45)

quote:

Who can blame real Flamencos and Flamenco fans for being disgusted?


Why? Because he is making a lot of money? That 's the nature of the business. When the Beatles showed up along with Elvis that really put a hit on the pop music of the period. It put guys like Johnny Mercer out of work as rock musicians wrote their own music. You really have to worry if the flamenoes start copying Ottmar;-)



Stoney -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 12:11:53)

quote:

Why? Because he is making a lot of money?


What is the definition of an optomist? A guy whose only job is playing Flamenco guitar at the local Tapas bar and who also has a mortage!

I for one don't respect people for having or making a lot of money. The richest man in the world Carlos Slim from Mexico also happens to be the most corrupt SOB that you could imagine.

I do however respect someone for their art, or dedication to their art. Maybe somebody really stinks at whatever art form they do, but doing it everyday, religiously has a certain merit to it.

I'm not against Ottmar. I like a few of the things he has done. (Maybe 6 songs out of his entire catelogue) He brought a lot of attention to the form. I just think there were a hell of a lot of others more qualified to do it, without selling out quite as much, without perverting the style as much and with a lot more reverence for the style. Gypsy Kings IMHO did it that way (at least some of the time)

Stoney



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 13:21:55)

quote:

and with a lot more reverence for the style.


Reverence? That's whats different from this forum and classical ones where the music
is not considered to be the object of reverence. Playing flamenco is not a sacramental
endeavor I would think and nowdays what is? One is either competent or not and not blasphemous if incompetent. Flamenco to some here is akin to religion it seems.



Patrick -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 14:05:38)

quote:

The richest man in the world Carlos Slim from Mexico also happens to be the most corrupt SOB that you could imagine.


Not true based on Forbes list. Bill Gates is number one and Warren Buffet number two. Carlos is in third with a net worth of 49 billion.

I have no opinion on Carlos as to being corrupt or not, but I on the other hand highly respect Mr. Gates and Mr. Buffet, who are self made. Both started out with virtually nothing and have added immensely to the world. If it weren’t for Gates, we likely wouldn't even be having this conversation.

Buffet has or will turn over his total fortune to the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

It's not the money, but the person behind it.



gj Michelob -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 24 2009 14:09:10)

quote:

Flamenco to some here is akin to religion it seems.


First of all, Aeulus, accept my apology if I inadvertently offended you. It was not my intention at all. I –of all people- am quite at odds with the strict rules of flamenco and am admittedly rather simpleminded about the all phenomenon and culture, enjoying solely unaccompanied guitar work, not the Cante nor the dance. Hence, I am not policing the world to chase the witches flying astray of tradition. My own music leaves a lot to be desired from a strictly flamenco prospective.

However, my commentary about Ottmar goes beyond the issue of whether he should or should not define himself a Flamenco (surely he should not, since that style has certain beautiful rules aged in botegas’ wine and cigarette smoke, we should not compromise). What I personally dislike of Ottmar is the “emptiness’ of musicality, texture, almost of any creative effort. It is –in simple terms- the “fast food’ of music, exploiting the uncultivated taste of masses now accustomed to “fast” and no longer able to discern and savor spices and condiments.

I am glad I play music for my own solitary and personal satisfaction, but if I had to earn a livelihood with it… I would not rule out the Ottmar’s path.



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