RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 13 2009 11:47:43)

Hey Stoney,

Good music is good music!

Whatever get's your juices goin' is good.
Whatever makes you feel positive and happy about life is good.

We don't knock musician's here just for being musicians.

On the contrary...we love musicians.

I don't dislike the GK's...

All we try to do is explain when something is "Spanishy" guitar and when something is "Flamenco".

Which is a term which could rapidly lose it's meaning if we go with the flow, so to say...

That's why it's called ForoFlamenco and not ForoSpanishySoundingSortaFlamencoThingThatSoundsKindaCool. [:D]

cheers,

Ron



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 13 2009 12:16:33)

I like the sound of his guitar, especially since he started playing a DeVoe cedar negra,
and if the melodies are simplistic, they are listenable if only as background music. So some of his song titles grate on the sensibilities of the flamenco aficionado, duende de amor for instance. He is a shrewd showman and knows exactly what his audience wants to hear. But he is not a virtuoso player by any means and if I want to really listen to nuanced playing, I turn on Vicente Amigo.



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 13 2009 13:31:01)

being a bit off-topic here, but somehow i feel it's related...
i just came home from a Gary Moore concert...and wow, i've never been so disappointed in my life...i gave up after 6 songs...
the guy's supposed to be one of the best players in the world...and yes, technically he's excellent...and he plays the blues - or does he? we all encountered the I-IV-V on our instruments and played some solos with clichés...but did we ever try to entertain 15-20000 people with 3 chords and some lengthy uninspired soloing?
well, Gary did just that, i heard nothing else but I-IV-V, and some copied solos from other players, just louder...at the end i felt like i had listened to endless tango compás with just the 3 main chords and noodling around the phrygian scale in the first position...
how does this relate to this conversation? it sounds clean, technically well executed, yet lacks any ideas and is sold as blues...while it's not blues, just bluesy stuff...something like Ottmar and co....



jshelton5040 -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 13 2009 14:35:50)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stoney


I once has a conversation with a very religious person and I asked them the following question.
"What is worse, an extremely religious person who sins or an Athiest who sins?"


How can an athiest sin?



John O. -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 13 2009 15:11:57)

I'm suprised you had to go three years back to find a post about Ottmar [:D]

The only thing that pisses me off is that he called the first album "Nuevo flamenco", which it wasn't, giving people a false impression of what flamenco is. On the other hand, the Gypsy Kings never called what they do flamenco and people still think it is, so probably it doesn't make a difference.

Fact is that in an interview he said something along the lines of flamenco being too small and limited for his creativity. Something similar to that. It's no suprise he pissed off flamencos with an ignorant remark like that.

It's nice music, but nothing special and personally bores me. But enough people like it, I guess.



daffey -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 13 2009 17:31:25)

I respect Rodrigo y Gabriella a bit more due to the fact that they do not call what the play flamenco. I think the problem arises when the Ottmar Lieberts of the world call what they play flamenco. As we can see, it upsets the purists to no end LOL!



mark indigo -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 14 2009 2:28:08)

quote:

What do you think of Ottmar Liebert?


i don't

[;)]



edguerin -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 14 2009 8:08:01)

quote:

i don't

I second that.



John O. -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 14 2009 8:32:51)

quote:

As we can see, it upsets the purists to no end LOL!


Not just purists. I'm all for fusion, using different elements in flamenco, even using flamenco elements in guitar music, but he's not even doing any of that, it's guitar music in 4/4 or 3/4, that is ALL. He just jumped on the bandwagon is all.

On a more banal note, another no-go in my book is using song titles with false abbreviations, like "Surrender 2 Love", "Waiting 4 Stars 2 Fall", or "Road 2 Her Home", (which is supposed to be a buleria because he accents 12, 3, 6, 8, 10 at the end) ...TACKY!



stratos13 -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 0:59:07)

Let's get the conversation going....

I think Ottmar has a really good PICADO!

Seriously...



mark indigo -> [Deleted] (Nov. 16 2009 1:35:04)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 16 2009 1:37:56



fevictor -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 4:17:01)

Ottmars music isn't that bad in my opinion, but you have to take it for what it is: simple, repetitive, quite often cheesy rumbas. Sometimes my coworker will play Ottmar at work and with low volume its just nice background music...kind of like taking a pleasant elevator ride! I do like the Gipsy Kings although I have to admit that most songs sound the same.

I think that this topic is interesting and can be compared to food - if you are a chef or a foody with a refined pallet can you still enjoy simple food? or do you only take pleasure in complex gourmet meals? For me Ottmar is a plain hot dog - nothing special but gets the job done if I'm hungry!!

Vic



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 4:51:40)

quote:

I think Ottmar has a really good PICADO!


Yeah, on occasion he shows commendable speed. But he is at his most creative in naming his tunes. But seriously, his latest album he is giving away on his web site with a plea to donate to a Iraq relief effort. He teams with an Iraqi playing a 'ud and the track Return to Andalusia (Ottmar's contribution no doubt) with a vocal by the Iraqui, perhaps a Iraqui version of cante jondo, is worth a listen .

http://www.ottmarliebert.com/rose/



XXX -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 4:52:05)

Food analogy is not so good. Simple food still contains useful stuff to still the hunger, even it does not satisfy your gourmet needs, but with music you cant say its still "useful" even though you don't like the sound of it. Nobody is hungry after "background noise" IMO, you always have the desire to hear a special song or music style which does something to your mood. There is no need independently from your desire or taste that could be fulfilled when it comes to music.



XXX -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 4:54:22)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.
On a more banal note, another no-go in my book is using song titles with false abbreviations, like "Surrender 2 Love", "Waiting 4 Stars 2 Fall", or "Road 2 Her Home", (which is supposed to be a buleria because he accents 12, 3, 6, 8, 10 at the end) ...TACKY!


LOL does it make you so angry?
Maybe i will dedicate my next falseta "4 you" [;)]

Oh i just red this on the page above...

quote:

Liebert, who has incorporated his own innovative ideas into the vocabulary of flamenco—bringing electric bass, synthesizer, electronics, drum kit, and more into the mix


[>:]
I mean its not only a falset statement that he plays flamenco, but also that it were his inventions. He would really grow in my eyes if he would use the term flamenco. But he just keeps on ignoring... If he said that its inspired by flamenco, well ok, not understandable, but acceptable.



John O. -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 5:13:22)

quote:

LOL does it make you so angry?


Just the other night I was on the treadmill and Madonna's "Give it 2 Me" came on, I almost threw the water bottle at the screen. Partly for the name, mostly it was Madonna, though...



bugeyed -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 6:45:00)

Music is music, plain and simple. If you are offended by what genre it is claimed to be representing that is a personal issue. Just because Ottmar is thought to play flamenco, does not diminish any of the true flamenco that is being produced. I think the root of the animosity is OL's success, & that has nothing to do with us! People enjoy music on many different levels. As with many things, many experience music without really "listening" with any understanding. Especially those who don't play an instrument. Could it be possible that those people are the best qualified to judge the musicality of the performance. They don't judge it based on difficulty or the musicians virtuosity, because they don't understand what is involved. They just know if the music pleases them or not. I like many styles of music & have found myself enjoying some music that I am embarrassed to admit. If a melody or musical piece moves you in some way, just enjoy it.
Our judgments can often keep us from enjoying the freedom of "living out loud". I have learned much in this life by accepting that someones joy is real & even if I am not equally moved, I can share in their joyous energy.
Peace,
kev



Gummy -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 6:52:56)

quote:

Just the other night I was on the treadmill and Madonna's "Give it 2 Me" came on, I almost threw the water bottle at the screen. Partly for the name, mostly it was Madonna, though...


So if she asked you to play a falsetta for her next remixed hit, would you do it? It would be great for your resume and bank account... Then would you tour with her and go on stage playing it in an S&M Zorro suit with an Esteban hat?[:D]



John O. -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 8:06:21)

And a pair of leather pants with the butt cheeks cut out [8D]



Doitsujin -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 11:24:34)

quote:

Allright, so what kind of music did YOU play that night.
Was it PDL ? Or maybe some Nunez buleria to stimulate the guests apetite and conversation?


This comment is already years old but I just saw it 5 mins ago.. So to answer this question. We played rumbas. But our rumbas were all more complex and had more to tell than Ottmars 4 notes tones per track rumbas. I think Ottmar is a not a good guitarist but a good artist or hes at least good in selling his ideas. I would see him actually as musician rather than an flamenco guitarrist. And as musician hes quite good and I respect what he has done.



minordjango -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 16 2009 21:12:40)

quote:

And a pair of leather pants with the butt cheeks cut out


so now David Lee roth plays Rhumbs.

The sad thing is Gary moore - that dude is a player check Dirty fingers, is Peter Green album , and victims of the future.

I never listen to the music above im like most here i like the complexity, yet what about R.Riquenis Rhumba on his instrustional vid thats cool.

As a teacher / learner Juan Marins method offers great information in the one book, and many great falsetas etc etc'
\
as Ron said if your juices are going then dig it and stop complaining, i realise this is a flamenco forum but we shold thing a little more openly and just accept other styles , as we do with juans latin American uploads as they are great, maybe to some Ottmar stuff is good so its cool.

if ya dont like it fling it out the window move own, flamenco is totally awesome the term new flamenco i think we are mature enough, to over look that slight error of judgement !.

too much to do in life then sit around complaining lads !



Stoney -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 17 2009 7:19:43)

It seems my comment brought this thread back to life. Cool.

All things Ottmar aside, there is a point with many musical styles where it all just becomes too much. The Jazz or Flamenco aficionado may get it 100% of the time and a true music fan may get it some of the time but a lot of folk will only get it LIVE and some even then don't ever get it.

I love Flamenco and all Spanishy guitar stlyes like Boleros and Ranchera music but with my blues roots I sometimes feel that if you play 64th notes in the first bar, what are you going to do to follow that up? Too much is too much.

Of course flamenco is a completely different style but economy can still come into play.

And there are a fair number of players out there that I have seen (non-recording artists or indy flamenco players) who always go for the showy technique and the cheap thrill. They play everything at the speed of light and think that's what flamenco is all about.

Flamenco, especially in it's solo form is probably THE HARDEST MUSIC there is to play and keep a room captivated. (particularly if you aren't amplified) Anyone who has played a small Tapas bar knows how hard it is to play over the conversation and rattling of plates.

I'm way off topic now I guess my point is the balance between playing for yourself vs. playing for the audience and playing economically vs. showing all your tricks every bar etc. etc. It's a real beach!

No one will ever acuse Ottmar of overplaying!

Stoney



Ron.M -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 17 2009 10:54:17)

quote:

I guess my point is the balance between playing for yourself vs. playing for the audience and playing economically vs. showing all your tricks every bar etc. etc. It's a real beach!

No one will ever acuse Ottmar of overplaying!



The thing that comes to my mind, is that the artist will constantly challenge himself/herself.

The entertainer wil always give their audience more of the same, 'cos that's what they want.

BTW...Anybody buying Dylan's "Christmas Album" ?

(Anyone know, was it produced by the Muppet Show team by any chance? [:D])

If he had gone the full circle and come out with a final album of thoughtful "protest" songs he began with....he would have sold millions and become a Legend...

Instead?

He'll probably sell millions and as it is, will always be a Legend anyway! [:D]

You've got really tough choices to make when you're a mega-rich legendary rock star....[:D]

Anyway..


cheers,

Ron



Adam -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 20 2009 16:02:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fevictor

Ottmars music isn't that bad in my opinion, but you have to take it for what it is: simple, repetitive, quite often cheesy rumbas. Sometimes my coworker will play Ottmar at work and with low volume its just nice background music...kind of like taking a pleasant elevator ride! I do like the Gipsy Kings although I have to admit that most songs sound the same.


Honestly, it seems to me like every flamenco aficionao who criticizes Ottmar has listened to maybe a couple of songs, and all the popular, very early stuff. If you were to listen to, say, his more recent album "The Scent of Light", I very much doubt you'd call it simplistic and cheesy [;)]

So I'm a pretty big fan of Ottmar's. The only time I've seen him discuss his music and flamenco is when he's gone out of the way to explain that (despite what many of his listeners - including, at one point, myself - may think) he does not play flamenco. What Ottmar does well is the construction of melody and, more recently, creating very well textured, layered music. I listened to a lot of "fake flamenco" a few years back, before I discovered actual flamenco - Jesse Cook, Armik, Gipsy Kings, etc., a lot of folks who like to pretend that they play flamenco, and thrive on that publicity. Of all those artists, the only one I still listen to (and do often) is Ottmar. There is something very different, very special about his music.



Adam -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 20 2009 16:04:15)

I should add: half of the reason he gets such crap from most flamencos is that he named his album "Nuevo Flamenco" (as he's told me, a business decision). Yeah, I don't like spreading "disinformation" about flamenco like that, but between that and his popularity, most flamencos think he calls himself a flamenco guitarist, and the vitriol goes out from there......



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 20 2009 16:46:07)

i would think you're right if it was about him calling himself a flamenco artist - i think it's more about the marketing machine, as some of these types of guitarists are sold by agents and recording companies as flamenco players, building on the ordinary, not well informed average listeners' misconceptions about flamenco being spanishy sounding guitar music...
so i would think most of the anger is not towards the artist himself, i respect all musicians for their efforts, even poor ones, even those who don't really seem to deserve the spotlight they get (and there are more of those, than who really do...)...a topic about one of these guitarists is just a great opportunity to vent our frustrations by saying no thanks, he sucks, it's a disgrace, etc...



joseglez -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 20 2009 17:45:05)

Sorry to hijack the thread, Jorge Strunz has never claimed his music is flamenco in any way. It is jazz, with a very strong Caribbean/Central American/Middle East influence for obvious reasons. And take it from someone that is from that region, they are very, very good playing their stuff.

Back to the topic, I could not care less about Ottmar Liebert. For me, that is department store music.



XXX -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 20 2009 23:51:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ramparts
I listened to a lot of "fake flamenco" a few years back, before I discovered actual flamenco - Jesse Cook, Armik, Gipsy Kings, etc., a lot of folks who like to pretend that they play flamenco, and thrive on that publicity.


Many people dont know that GK can play for example a bulerías, fandangos, with everything needed: compas, and a flamenco TONE. I have never seen they call their music flamenco or label an album with it. I guess until Ottmar doesnt change in this regard (its not only one album), he will have to "take it" from flamencos, even if its "just" a business decision. Cool that you found a music you like, but im sure you will understand, that this does not lower the anger some people feel against Ottmar. I listened to some samples of his more recent stuff... nothing special imo.



aeolus -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 2:38:58)

That's why they call it the "free market". As long as a name's not copyrighted, anything goes. But some seem to regard flamenco as a religion, like Catholicism. the one true faith with a set of rigid rules to adhere to, to be in good standing. I am not convinced Liebert is hurting the real flamenco players, the gypsies, and if they were still in the downtrodden state that bred the genre, then yeah, he is to be censured.
But certainly the best players are doing very well, I would think.
.



XXX -> RE: What do you think of Ottmar Liebert? (Nov. 21 2009 5:02:27)

Actually nobody talked about censoring. You don't need to be in a religious state of mind to stay honest to your art (that includes labeling).

quote:

But certainly the best players are doing very well, I would think.


I would think so to, although most of them are no "real flamenco players", ie non-gipsy. [;)]



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