Ricardo -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (Jun. 3 2021 13:37:37)
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Well he must have (thus his attempt at explanation that Piwin found in the text; and 'flamenca de Roma'), but he and other Brits who wrote about Spain at the time could easily have been confused (or careless) what the scope of the use of the noun 'a flamenco/ flamencos' was - they seemed to think it refers to gitanos as a group rather than to just the subset of gitanos who practice [the art of] flamenco. Well I actually read both his books... scanned em rapidly over several days. I notice the Fleming thing right away but Piwin had commented on that while I was still going through the Zincali book, before I could point it out. I feel flamencologists that noticed FLamenca de Roma (or was that YOU?) missed Fleming because of the English translation. I don’t think Piwin would have noticed either had I not brought up the point several pages before that, but I will let him answer that himself. Borrows came to my attention and others I assume, thanks to that article page both Devilhand and yourself pointed to, and later I noticed Borrows work getting honorable mentions. I want to point out that having read both his books, it is extremely surprising to not see the “flamenco” word used ever. During the “Fleming” exposittion, he is giving the reader history, so it appears at the beginning of the book. AFter mentioning the situation as described, he never brings it up again. Why it is weird is because the bulk of his writings are as verbal and physical interactions with people. He is quite proud of his command over a dozen languages, and it gives him a power to impress, converse, and eavesdrop sort of like a magic power, and he never ceases at pointing out his ability to the reader by proving it. So he always provides the actual text in whatever language (spanish, calo, French, German, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, ARabic, etc you name it), then provides his personal translations, which are never the literal google kind, but always carefully worded. He takes pains to rhyme in English whatever songs he hears. WHile we don’t have the MUSIC in his book, we have lyrics and superficial descriptions of how things were sung, danced, played on guitar. He never admits to any musical training, but I suspect he has some based on what I read (he sings himself at times). The two books taken together are SUPER “flamenco’ for our purposes, especially the Zincali dictionary, which I made use of on a gig with a Cantaor just Friday night (He wanted to translate Ketama’s Chupendi, which I found in fact in the Zincali dictionary on my phone 😂). I am 100% sure that at least SOME of the music he describes seeing was Flamenco as we know it. So with all that considered, and the geography and depth of trust he gained with the various Gitanos, it is VERY STRANGE, he never once points out the music or people as “flamenco”, especially in context with the evidence we see on the timeline pointing to a common knowledge in the region. I mean the 1838 event in Triana...the guy was LIVING THERE AT THE SAME TIME....but mentions no such activity. It is like while he is writing about Gypsies in his room, there is a Juerga going on outside that he is missing. All those letras and stuff (where you got Flamenca de Roma) come from the mind of a Gitano lottery seller on the streets of Sevilla who relates a story about being abducted by Toreros to sing and recite Calo poetry that he had memorized (this illiterate gypsy guy had a photographic memory or had at least committed a lot of books to memory that he couldn’t read, all that was used by Borrows). Both books point to the Sevillano Toreros having a gypsy fetish for the calo, and into singing songs and speaking broken calo or reciting poetry. (He encounters some in Madrid of all places). I mean you can’t get a more “Flamenco” first hand account if you went there today. But not a SINGLE mention of “Flemish” or “Flamenco” in his writings, actually. Thanks for all the rest you provided. The spanish language stuff will take some time to go through. Yes I am concerned with FANDANGO, because it IS FLAMENCO music, a huge part of it, with the other two being Siguiriyas and Soleá family. I want to see musical DNA such as the Felix Lopez Harpsichord piece, and not all the other garbage they tend to present that is superficially “like” flamenco. WE need harmony and melody, more than 6/8 compas. A proper timeline will included the known CONCRETE musical examples, which are few, plus the letras and verbal descriptions, which seem to be in abundance. If you mean to keep this ONE timeline about the word “flamenco” only, I get that and that is fine. But in my head is running musical stuff mainly.
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