RE: Can a white man play the blues? (Full Version)

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Morante -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 22:01:01)

quote:

It went much further than that outside of this forum. Really nasty stuff.


I remember that, en la Plaza de Toros. Better not relive it[:@]



Mark2 -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 6 2021 0:15:27)

Por bulerias:Hay Joselito Joselito......Gm-was it the same melody por tangos? Not that it matters....
Who knew Gm was such a contentious chord :-)
quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

I remember Jay as having very strong opinions and little knowledge. He made a vicious attack on Estela for saying that a particular letra of tangos calls for a Gmin. I supported her, with musical examples and made an instant enemy[:D] I never met him but imagine he would have been a difficult companion.



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 6 2021 2:34:55)

The problem with Jay is that he couldn’t play the guitar, he like an insane rabbi. He had a lot of hands on knowledge from spending time with his Gitano friends, but he resented them being treated like subjects in an anthropological study, which is understandable. He was of all things a professor of medical ethics and he wrote a very important book on the subject that was regarded as a standard in his day.

He also got bullied as much as he bullied others and at times he was taunted very badly. Eventually he went a bit nuts partly due to his obsession to protect a narrative about flamencos and their culture in the way he experienced it. The rabbi part of his personality that arbited through ethical and moral values was high jacked by the obsession to control the gate of something he held as an ideal.
Not that his actions were correct, but he himself was part of a bigger loop of retribution vendettas and anger about who’s right and who’s wrong. Frankly people tortured him because he was a somewhat mentally ill. Instead of disengagement, several people rode him knowing full well he was mentally ill. He needed professional help much earlier than he got it.

He was on his good side very witty and knowledgeable about all kinds of music, but he couldn’t play and his nose for cultural commentary didn’t sniff out the musical nuts a bolts.



Piwin -> [Deleted] (May 6 2021 3:19:06)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 6 2021 3:19:37



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 6 2021 4:00:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Reading a smattering of flamencology has taught me the value of an attitude best exemplified by Sportin’ Life in the Gershwin brothers’ “Porgy and Bess”

“Things that you’re liable
To read in the Bible
Ain’t necessarily so.”


Álvarez Caballero says it more diplomatically, in a section about tonás:

quote:

Hay una rara concordancia acerca de este punto, una concordancia nada habitual entre quienes se han ocupado de una investigación tan resbaladiza, tan incierta siempre, como la del flamenco.


RNJ



Ricardo -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 6 2021 23:59:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

I remember Jay as having very strong opinions and little knowledge. He made a vicious attack on Estela for saying that a particular letra of tangos calls for a Gmin. I supported her, with musical examples and made an instant enemy[:D] I never met him but imagine he would have been a difficult companion.


I do remember estela saying this
quote:

Since the dawn of Paco de Lucía, the harmonic palette has exploded and you can no longer get by with three chords per cante like in the old days. I know youngsters who consider the cejilla something the old guitarists used to use. Juan Maya, one of the greatest accompanists of all time (IMO) told me shortly before his death that he could no longer play for cante, because young singers expected chords he never used. Does that mean he was playing the “wrong chords”?

As recently as Perico del Lunar, Gm was not used in cante accompaniment, even for styles where we now consider it the only possible option (tientos such as “Inmediato” or bulerías such as “Joselito Joselito”). Was everyone accompanying those cantes “wrong”?


Thought that was funny cuz I’ve heard it used. Gm is almost as bad as the Bm7b5 that got whitehead and McGuire banned from foro[:D][:D][:D]



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 7 2021 4:11:53)

quote:



Thought that was funny cuz I’ve heard it used. Gm is almost as bad as the Bm7b5 that got whitehead and McGuire banned from foro


That was a trend that’s run it’s course in some ways.
After Paco relinquished his spot as Camaron’s guy Tomatito stepped in. There are plenty of recordings in which Tomatito uses three chords for tangos, siguiriya and cantinas, but ok that was in the 1980’s. Then later as the guitar accompaniment got more complicated there concurrently exists a line of playing that’s not utilizing a wide spectrum of substitute chords, but employs a taste here and there to embellish on a basic chord structure.

The argument over the Gm chord was whether or not it had been used earlier, some claimed they could hear it in Borull, and others Don Ramons playing.

In some ways it’s condescending or pretentious to make such pronouncements seeing that after this was stated the beautiful record of Santiago Donday was received so well with the straightforward accompaniment by Cepero. Then there’s the guitarists like Moraito who said you only need three chords and heart for certain palos and to complicate it up is to miss the point. Guitar playing has gotten pretty esoteric and it’s all for the good, but for Allegrias all you need are three or four chords and two falsetas, it’s how you mark time and put little pinches of filler riffs to connect the chords that’s the art. It doesn’t matter if that material is more modern in harmonic ideas or ancient.

I was told by someone who knew Juan Maya very well over the years that was extremely bitter and that he wasn’t going to say anything nice about anything.



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 7 2021 4:20:17)

quote:

ost as bad as the Bm7b5 that got whitehead and McGuire banned from foro


Yes sad, in a way. But the proxy war waged with the anime characters that had artificial intelligence voicing was so funny it became a reason to do it in and of itself. It’s too bad world leaders don’t fight that way.

Jason had a profile that went unnoticed for some time ( I could tell ) under the name Fred Sanford that was also funny. With. McGuire idle hands are the devils workshop, he’s always needed a better hobby than the internet. I thought about convincing him to play golf, but soon gave up. I don’t like golf.



kitarist -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 6:35:55)

quote:


The one thing that remains for me as a new stable fact, not speculation, is that in 1835-1838 there was a gypsy song containing the phrase "Flamenca de Roma(*)'; the word 'flamenca' in that clearly referring to a gypsy/Roma woman and not to a Flemish person. I think that by itself is quite amazing. How it came about is another matter, as we see still open to hypothesizing.

(*) It occured to me that the fact that a gypsy song says 'flamenca de Roma' rather than just 'flamenca' - i.e. that the gypsy cantaor/author felt the need to specify which type of flamenco person - may be an indication that the time frame 1835-38 is very close to when this meaning first emerged (hence the need to clarify which one of the two uses is employed).


I found further contemporaneous corroboration that 'flamenca de Roma' refers to a gitana (and not, for example, to a person from Rome):

In 1845 Prosper Mérimée's novella "Carmen" got published. 30 years later, in 1875, it would be turned by Georges Bizet into a famous opera. (Also, there is a connection to George Borrow's 1841 "The Zincali" as it served as a background source on gitanos) But Mérimée had visited Spain in 1830 and had been studying the gypsy people. So when the Countess of Montijo told him, in 1830, a story about a ruffian from Malaga killing his mistress, Mérimée decided to make her a gitana and the heroine of his novel.

In this edition on page 79 a footnote reads:

(To be clear, I am only referring to the 'roma' part of the footnote; the rest of the claim - about 'why a flemming' - is, in contrast, not more than a [not very believable] guess; whereas flamenca de Roma referring to a gitana was a contemporaneously observed usage.)




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estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 9:44:26)

quote:

found further contemporaneous corroboration that 'flamenca de Roma' refers to a gitana (and not, for example, to a person from Rome):

In 1845 Prosper Mérimée's novel "Carmen" got published. 30 years later, in 1875, the novel would be turned by Georges Bizet into a famous opera. (Also, there is a connection to George Borrow's 1841 "The Zincali" as it served as a background source on gitanos) But Mérimée had visited Spain in 1830 and had been studying the gypsy people. So when the Countess of Montijo told him, in 1830, a story about a ruffian from Malaga killing his mistress, Mérimée decided to make her a gitana and the heroine of his novel.

In this edition on page 79 a footnote reads:


That’s one cheese pizza of a novella, and a smoking gun of a literary reference to Flemings.

He spitted himself on my Sabre ....

Fine literature



RobF -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 11:01:32)

quote:

He spitted himself on my Sabre ....

That’s just the way they fought in those days... “after pummelling my fist with his vituperative visage, he forcefully engaged my foot with the forefront of his derrière and, whilst violently grabbing my hand with his arm and holding it firmly to his back, let out a howl to wake the dead as he dragged me swiftly towards the door...” and so on.



Stu -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 11:25:25)

quote:


He joined here, pissed off a lot of people, threatened serious violence and then he died in NYC.


[:D][:D][:D]
Dunno if that was meant to be funny but that certainly tickled me.



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 11:33:17)

quote:


That’s just the way they fought in those days... “after pummelling my fist with his vituperative visage, he swiftly engaged my foot with the forefront of his derrière and, whilst violently grabbing my hand with his arm and holding it firmly to his back, let out a howl to wake the dead as he dragged me swiftly towards the door...” and so on.


I fear if that ruffian W. Barkell hears of this toughery he may be inspired to afront you with a brisk round of fisticuffs! Ho there, I caution you not to stir the fighting spirit in the loins of Herr Jernigan or W. Barkell lest you desire a sound arse whip!



RobF -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 11:47:38)

That’s quite an interesting find, a few pages further on in the story we learn that the British were referred to as “lobsters” by the Spanish. The footnote indicates this was due to the color of their uniforms, rather than the effect of the strong sunlight on their complexion. I wonder if any contemporary Flemish literature mentions the Roma?



RobF -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 11:55:20)

Why ever would either of those fine gentlemen be driven to violence upon my personage due to a parody of the descriptive mores of the long dead past? Truly, I find your words disturbing. Arse whip, indeed, is this thread closed to the witticisms of others?



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 12:11:10)

quote:

Why ever would either of those fine gentlemen be driven to violence upon my personage due to a parody of the descriptive mores of the long dead past? Truly, I find your words disturbing. Arse whip, indeed, is this thread closed to the witticisms of others?


I speak in the language of hyperbole good man, indeed these fine diplomats wouldn’t jump into a fray. The comedic reverie of my semi intoxicated state led me to write with quixotic expressions in haste.

Still friend, be thy own watchman, there are lobsters about after all....



BarkellWH -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 13:09:29)

quote:

I fear if that ruffian W. Barkell hears of this toughery he may be inspired to afront you with a brisk round of fisticuffs! Ho there, I caution you not to stir the fighting spirit in the loins of Herr Jernigan or W. Barkell lest you desire a sound arse whip!


Nay, Sir Stephen, 'tis not Sir Rob I seek. I seek the one who blackened my name with false charges and scurrilous slander that led to my discharge from the Queen's Service and into the life I now lead as a highwayman, riding the post roads in search of plunder and the villain who forced me outside the law.

When I eventually catch him we shall enter the nearest tavern, and I shall request of the serving wench: "Swords for two and brandy for one." At that, I shall dispatch him to his well-deserved fate.

William of Lancaster



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 14:33:34)

Aye William,

My squire will see to your horses, come in off the roads and share a copita of these fine vintages I have liberated from the cellars of the Jernigan Suites. The old man wouldn’t have any respect for me if I didn’t lift a bottle or two.



kitarist -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 18:13:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

That’s quite an interesting find, a few pages further on in the story we learn that the British were referred to as “lobsters” by the Spanish. The footnote indicates this was due to the color of their uniforms, rather than the effect of the strong sunlight on their complexion.


I was quite certain this was one of your witty remarks and felt like a fool browsing the pages anyway, but, lo and behold, there it was on page 93 [:D][:D]



Escribano -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 18:34:57)

Also known as lobsters during the American war of independence. Their red uniforms and marching in lines, side-by-side proved rather easy targets for the sharpshooters/woodsmen, not in a bright uniform and hiding behind trees. [8|]



Estevan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 18:48:55)

quote:

I seek the one who blackened my name with false charges and scurrilous slander

Why, that blackguard Harry Paget Flashman, I'll wager!



RobF -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 8 2021 22:16:29)

quote:

Why, that blackguard Harry Paget Flashman, I'll wager!

While I fully intend to spend this cold and rainy evening sequestered in front of a modest fire with a glass of whiskey to read my newly found Carmen novel, the following quotes from some of the later Flashman books have convinced me to add them to my summer’s reading list...or at least give one a shot.

“Well, even from above and through a muslin screen there was no doubt that she was female, and no need for stays to make the best of it, either; she stood like an ebony statue as the two wenches began to bathe her from bowls of water. Some vulgar lout grunted lasciviously, and realizing who it was I shrank back a trifle in sudden anxiety that I'd been overheard.”

For a moment there I thought the description was of myself.

Or this one...

“It's a remarkable thing (and I've traded on it all my life) that a single redeeming quality in a black sheep wins greater esteem than all the virtues in honest men — especially if the quality is courage. I'm lucky, because while I don't have it, I look as though I do...”

How about this...

“Blustering hadn't helped me, and a look at Rudi's mocking face told me that whining wouldn't either. Robbed of the two cards which I normally play in a crisis, I was momentarily lost.”

All the world needs a hero.

And this is one of my favorite quotes from a friend of mine, who escaped from an Eastern Bloc country many years ago with only the clothes on his back, leaving behind all he held dear...”What most people don’t realize about me is I’m not very smart. I’ve learned to use this to my advantage.”



Brendan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 9 2021 11:17:25)

We must assume that duelling was written up in the sporting clichés of the time. “He spitted himself on my sabre” is the C19 equivalent of rising like a salmon at the far post, or lofting a loose chinaman over silly mid-off.



BarkellWH -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 9 2021 14:09:22)

quote:

Why, that blackguard Harry Paget Flashman, I'll wager!


Aye, Flashman it is. The man is indeed a blackguard, a cad, and a poltroon, always appearing courageous while doing his utmost to avoid danger and shirk his duty.

William



Estevan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 9 2021 15:50:16)

quote:

rising like a salmon at the far post

!
Peter Drury?



Brendan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 9 2021 18:46:49)

quote:


quote:

rising like a salmon at the far post

!
Peter Drury?


It’s either anon. or trad..



BarkellWH -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 9 2021 20:59:34)

quote:

rising like a salmon at the far post, or lofting a loose chinaman over silly mid-off.


Forgive my ignorance, but in trying to look up the two phrases above, I couldn't find exact quotes but found similar phrasing with regard to cricket. Are they terms used in cricket? If not, what do they refer to?

Bill



Estevan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 9 2021 21:44:59)

quote:

quote:

rising like a salmon at the far post, or lofting a loose chinaman over silly mid-off.

Forgive my ignorance, but in trying to look up the two phrases above, I couldn't find exact quotes but found similar phrasing with regard to cricket. Are they terms used in cricket? If not, what do they refer to?


The second is indeed an example of the arcane terminology of cricket. It's a long time since I've played it or followed it, as a result of moving across the pond in my early years, but at least I recognized "silly mid-off" as one of the fielding positions. I had to look up this usage of "chinaman" to discover that it is a style of bowling. The chap doing the lofting in this instance is the batsman who is hitting such a delivery over that position.

The first example is from football or soccer (as you will). I haven't heard the expression, but "the far post" and a player jumping (however poetically) indicate that the action is a corner kick, a situation in which the attacking players often have a chance to head the ball into the net, which usually necessitates jumping higher than the surrounding defenders.

The metaphor put me in mind of Peter Drury, a commentator known for his distinctively "poetical" style, which, though frequently forced and over the top (or because of that), can be quite hilarious - and an amusing contrast to his usual colleagues who are former players informing us that "They've got to put the ball in the back of the net".
For example, sometime last year, after an excellent win in the days before my team completely forgot how to play, Drury rhapsodized "On a balmy English summer evening, Liverpool are the cream to pour on your strawberries".
[8|]



BarkellWH -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 9 2021 21:50:52)

Many thanks for the explanation, Estevan.

Bill



Escribano -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 10 2021 8:12:23)

quote:

"the far post"


It doesn't have to be a corner kick, it can also be a cross or free kick from the other side of goal, towards the far post. Heading it is optional.



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