RE: Can a white man play the blues? (Full Version)

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estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 3 2021 2:51:11)

quote:

俺?


あさ


The kanji you used means Myself, or me. Ore wa .., I’m going to (do something )


Asa - あさ - means morning

Ore! Asa!

Me morning!

Get it tattooed on you forearm so it confuses Japanese people. Then say I’m a Flamingo from Holland



Piwin -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 3 2021 5:47:53)

quote:

Then say I’m a Flamingo from Holland


Ok, I got this. I've done at least 3 pages of Assimil on this language.

Ore wa flamant rose aus der Niederlande desu.

How did I do?



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 3 2021 8:45:55)

quote:

Ore wa flamant rose aus der Niederlande desu


Thank you el Baka Tono Sama

This thread has made an amazing round trip back to Holland Orange Flamingos, the great circle has closed.



Fluknu -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 3 2021 18:26:08)

.



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Richard Jernigan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 3 2021 21:39:49)

Back to the "off topic" topic of the etymology of "flamenco." Having finished Gamboa, I ordered "El Cante Flamenco" by Ángel Álvarez Caballero, cited several times by Gamboa. Of course I checked for etymology when it arrived the day before yesterday.

Álvarez Caballero writes a chapter on it. He presents several theories, including those advanced here. He presents pros and cons for each, but arrives at a definitive conclusion for only one, the "Arabic Hypothesis," which derives "flamenco" from "fellah-mengu."

quote:

Álvarez Caballero Page 173

Sin embargo, toda la sugestiva teoria infantiana (sic), sustentada con entusiasmo por Grande y otros intelectuales, cayó por su base al comprobarse que la segunda voz árabe--mengu, menku. enku--no existe.

[However, the entire inchoate theory, supported with enthusiasm by Grande and other intellectuals, collapsed when it was found that the second Arabic word - mengu, menku. enku - does not exist.]


In the translation I take "infantiana" to be a typo for "infantina."

Since I don't know any Arabic at all, I would welcome comment by an expert in the language, or a report from anyone who knows such an expert.

RNJ



kitarist -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 4 2021 0:55:10)

quote:

lvarez Caballero Page 173

Sin embargo, toda la sugestiva teoria infantiana (sic), sustentada con entusiasmo por Grande y otros intelectuales, cayó por su base al comprobarse que la segunda voz árabe--mengu, menku. enku--no existe.

[However, the entire inchoate theory, supported with enthusiasm by Grande and other intellectuals, collapsed when it was found that the second Arabic word - mengu, menku. enku - does not exist.]


If true, that would explain the "linguistic grounds' Sayers 2007 mentions (I quote it on page 3) for dismissing the fellah mengu hypothesis.



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 4 2021 4:00:00)

quote:

Álvarez Caballero writes a chapter on it. He presents several theories, including those advanced here. He presents pros and cons for each, but arrives at a definitive conclusion for only one, the "Arabic Hypothesis," which derives "flamenco" from "fellah-mengu."

quote:

Álvarez Caballero Page 173

Sin embargo, toda la sugestiva teoria infantiana (sic), sustentada con entusiasmo por Grande y otros intelectuales, cayó por su base al comprobarse que la segunda voz árabe--mengu, menku. enku--no existe.

[However, the entire inchoate theory, supported with enthusiasm by Grande and other intellectuals, collapsed when it was found that the second Arabic word - mengu, menku. enku - does not exist.]


Which gives more weight to the application of Occams Razor- if one lead provides more evidence, it’s more likely true. The word flamenco already existed in describing things Flemish. How the connection is made to apply it to this form of music called flamenco is the missing information.



Piwin -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 4 2021 5:30:50)

quote:

when it was found that the second Arabic word - mengu, menku. enku - does not exist.


Yeah...that would be a slight problem...



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 4 2021 13:42:44)

quote:

it was found that the second Arabic word - mengu, menku. enku - does not exist.


Enku does exist, he was a 17th century wandering Buddhist monk woodcarver.

Known as Fellow Enku, and thus is borne the connection between baroque European sculptures depicting Phlegmish Phlemingos and Bodhisattvas.

Fellow Enku



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BarkellWH -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 4 2021 13:54:41)

quote:

Which gives more weight to the application of Occams Razor- if one lead provides more evidence, it’s more likely true. The word flamenco already existed in describing things Flemish. How the connection is made to apply it to this form of music called flamenco is the missing information.


I absolutely concur with Stephen's application of Occam's Razor in determining which of the two explanations--Flemish or Arabic--inform the derivation of "flamenco." The simplest explanation generally prevails, in this case the Spanish "flamenco" for "Flemish." The linguistic gymnastics performed by those who favor "Fellah-mengu," and the fact that "mengu" may not even exist in the Arabic lexicon, render the debate moot.

As Stephen points out, the only question is how the term "flamenco" came to be applied to the genre of music we know as "flamenco."

Bill



Beni2 -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 2:55:31)

quote:

the only question is how the term "flamenco" came to be applied to the genre of music we know as "flamenco."

Sociologia del Cante Flamenco - Steingreas



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 4:28:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Beni2

quote:

the only question is how the term "flamenco" came to be applied to the genre of music we know as "flamenco."

Sociologia del Cante Flamenco - Steingreas


The Spanish edition of the Steingress book is available only as a used copy, priced at hundreds of dollars. During the pandemic the Austin Public Library has suspended interlibrary loans.

Could you summarize or quote Steingress' explanation how "flamenco" came to be applied to our topic?

Thanks,

RNJ



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 5:09:18)

quote:

quote:

the only question is how the term "flamenco" came to be applied to the genre of music we know as "flamenco."

Sociologia del Cante Flamenco - Steingreas


For a brief period Steingress himself was a contributor to the older iteration of this Foro when it was hosted at Temple University servers in the mid to late 1990’s.

He debated his ideas with other members who were quite knowledgeable and eventually he was bullied so badly by one member he finally left. That member and one other were notorious for being obnoxious to anyone they surmised was a ‘flamencagologo’.
Seeing as those members are in one case very dead and the other too corpulent to push a chair up to a computer it’s safe for Steingress to come back and speak. Under the great helmsmanship of Capt Simon the old boy would probably only suffer boredom of enduring a ruthlessly guitar-o-centric flamenco dysfunction speakeasy.

The main problem as Richard points out, is that nobody reads his book because it’s too rare to afford.



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 5:21:51)

Here’s a research trick I’ll pass on. If you find books difficult to come by authors will often be cited in other papers and sometimes anthologies or compendiums writings. Do the search of the authors name and PDF and you might get lucky if you dig through the results.

Search

Gerhard Steingress PDF

https://www.academia.edu/20200692/STEINGRESS_GERHARD_Social_Theory_and_the_Comparative_History_of_Flamenco_Tango_and_Rebetika

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03007760802702825?journalCode=rpms20



https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-3-030-37199-9_2



tf10music -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 6:04:06)

quote:

He debated his ideas with other members who were quite knowledgeable and eventually he was bullied so badly by one member he finally left. That member and one other were notorious for being obnoxious to anyone they surmised was a ‘flamencagologo’.


What was his username? I want to read those exchanges!



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 9:07:05)

quote:

What was his username? I want to read those exchanges!


I don’t remember. Is that flamenco forum archived somewhere? Way Back Machine? It was flamenco forum @temple.edu



Beni2 -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 9:22:01)

quote:

Could you summarize or quote Steingress' explanation how "flamenco" came to be applied to our topic?

Hi Richard. I'll let Steingress speak for himself (I can't believe the price of out-of-print books).


Although the "felah mengu" etymology can probably be dismissed, it is quite another thing to dismiss the possible Arabic musical influences, either direct or indirect (via Berber, Morisco, Sephardic). Steingress does not say much about this.

@Estebanana: the foro can be a great virtual space at times but there is a lot of bullying, and a lot of passive-agressive anti-intellectualism (as if scholars couldn't be practitioners, or practitioners couldn't be scholars). Reminds me of what happened to Nuñez on Facebook.

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Piwin -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 9:50:09)

quote:

Steingress does not say much about this.


I'm lost. I must've missed something.



BarkellWH -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 12:52:16)

quote:

Although the "felah mengu" etymology can probably be dismissed, it is quite another thing to dismiss the possible Arabic musical influences, either direct or indirect (via Berber, Morisco, Sephardic). Steingress does not say much about this.


I don't think anyone is dismissing the Arabic (via Moorish) and Sephardic musical influences on flamenco. I think most of us agree that those elements have gone into the musical genre we know as "flamenco." The debate in this thread has been over the etymology of the term "flamenco," and, like you, I think we can dismiss the "felah mengu" explanation. The "Flemish" explanation seems much more plausible.

The question still remains: How did the term "flamenco" come to be applied to the musical genre we know as "flamenco"? Did the term "flamenco" (meaning "Flemish") begin to be applied at some point to describe the Gitano in Spain (who perhaps migrated from Flanders) and, by extension, his music? That seems like a possibility to me. But we will probably never have conclusive evidence to support any particular explanation, Steingress (and others) notwithstanding.

Bill



Ricardo -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 13:42:52)

quote:

Estebanana: the foro can be a great virtual space at times but there is a lot of bullying, and a lot of passive-agressive anti-intellectualism (as if scholars couldn't be practitioners, or practitioners couldn't be scholars). Reminds me of what happened to Nuñez on Facebook.


I admit I have been guilty of this at times, and I don’t mean to be a “bully” about it, and I certainly would apologize for coming off that way. It has always concerned me that the flamencology mentality often coincided, so it seemed, with novice level of the art. For example, the issue of the origin of the word “flamenco” hardly seems important when folks can’t execute palmas or a decent rasgueado. Also I did fall in, early on in my learning, with the snobby crowd or flamenco dancers and artists that would make fun of some of those guys that talk about “in medieval times....”...it was running joke for years. Now I am much older I actually AM interested in “medieval times” in regards to flamenco stuff [:D]. Another thing...the dancers I worked with had upgraded their material in spain such that there was a big push back, especially in USA, to stay far removed from the Jose Greco era influence of (as PDL said about him in Busqueda) “cliches” of spain and flamenco from the 50s that linger today. It started with costumes, llamadas, and compas, and before I knew it I was being forced reject certain traditional elements in favor of the modern popular trend, whatever it might have been in Madrid in 2000 or so.

Looking back I feel I missed out on a lot of good old school stuff because of those bully dancers, and now I love it. The older the better. I am much more open these days to “scholarly research”, however, I remain fairly unimpressed at what I have read so far. 3000 pages I scanned and it was Kitarist that dug up an actual score that seemed useful [:D]. Flamencology is a field I really really really want to embrace, but like yesterday I was looking for some cante transcriptions and came across this masterpiece. I mean come on man, they need to do better!
[:D]


[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

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Mark2 -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 16:27:45)

Jacinto? The professor from NY? Can't imagine who the other person is.....
I remember reading somewhere that artists are the experts. Conversely, I also remember a very good article written by John Moore in which he described different kinds of aficionados and the type of knowledge they have.




quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

What was his username? I want to read those exchanges!


I don’t remember. Is that flamenco forum archived somewhere? Way Back Machine? It was flamenco forum @temple.edu



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 16:31:19)

That’s interesting because I came up around both new bully dancers and dancers seasoned in the 60’s. So I heard both ends at the same time.

This is funny, at a show with a dancer who was a young fire in the early 70’s. She studied with an older dancer in Sevilla in the 70’s and 80’s always gathering stuff. She has gorgeous bracero and younger hot shot dancers in the 90’s would sometimes send students over to her to study upper body. Anyway, was at a show with her around 2000 and she said “I’ll be darned, a casteana” we weee watching a modern company performing Algerias and the dancer did a casteana- which was pretty much stripped out of Algerias by the Bully Dancers in the 80’s 90’s right? It was entrada, letra, ten hours of footwork 2nd letra, two seconds escobilla ten grueling hours of footwork, fast footwork hyper sonic foot work, then a buleria de cai....yet more footwork and curtains.

This company did a full traditional very old style Algeria, but with a section that had a decade and a half of footwork, but the casteana was there, and a double silencio- the works. Silencio was for a time a thing that got dropped.

There is a lot to learn from older dancers trained back when, especially if in the 60’s if they were with an old teacher at the time.



estebanana -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 16:40:00)

Jay Kantor - Jacinto, today he’d be called a bully gatekeeper, or worse. He was an argumentative opinionated jerk, but he had his moments. The one who beat up Steingress was Richard Ogilby, he could be very caustic without so much as an introduction. He was dismissive of Steingress because he didn’t agree with Steingress’ ideas about how palos were developed into performance forms that we recognize today as Solea, Algerias as cuadro pieces. This came together in Cafes’ Cantantes and there was heated talk on the old forum about who developed the structure of the forms, the club owners or the artists.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 18:06:42)

quote:

Ricardo

It has always concerned me that the flamencology mentality often coincided, so it seemed, with novice level of the art. For example, the issue of the origin of the word “flamenco” hardly seems important when folks can’t execute palmas or a decent rasgueado. Also I did fall in, early on in my learning, with the snobby crowd or flamenco dancers and artists that would make fun of some of those guys that talk about “in medieval times....”...it was running joke for years. Now I am much older I actually AM interested in “medieval times” in regards to flamenco stuff [:D]


I am certainly no novice—at least when it comes to flamencology. I cut my teeth reading LP jackets in the late 1950s. 😎 Of course they were mostly unalloyed bullsh1t. Then Molina and Mairena came out. They informed us that payos had nothing to do with it. But by then I had come across Chacon and was vaguely aware of Silverio. I knew Fernando and Amor Sirvent and Carlos Ramos, lifelong pros, all payos.

Nowadays I try to read a little Spanish every day, and I socialize on the Foro. If not the most “off topic” poster here, I am certainly among the leading offenders. Reading a smattering of flamencology has taught me the value of an attitude best exemplified by Sportin’ Life in the Gershwin brothers’ “Porgy and Bess”

“Things that you’re liable
To read in the Bible
Ain’t necessarily so.”

RNJ



Beni2 -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 18:20:35)

quote:

I'm lost. I must've missed something.

Steingress does not address the "felah-mengu" hypothesis. Instead, he focuses on the Latin (flama-) and German (-enc) etymologies and the possible socialhistorical and cultural factors that led to the eventual treatment of "flamenco" and "gitano" as synonymous.

quote:

Flamencology is a field I really really really want to embrace, but like yesterday I was looking for some cante transcriptions and came across this masterpiece. I mean come on man, they need to do better!

@Ricardo: I get you. I never think of single works as "the definitive" or "final word." Instead, I think it is best to absorb as much as possible and come to your own conclusions based on critical though and good argumentation. There are people who still view "Mundo y Formas..." as the Bible.
quote:

Also I did fall in, early on in my learning, with the snobby crowd or flamenco dancers and artists that would make fun of some of those guys that talk about “in medieval times....”...it was running joke for years.

I think it is natural. We used to tease a dancer that happened to be trained in anthropology because "anthropology is not doing, it is thinking or writing." Talk about Karma (in the colloquial sense). Nevermind that she was technically and emotionally a sound dancer.
As for old material, my first teacher was of the 70s and 80s generation and made sure we learned things like the "ida" in alegrias. No one ever uses the melodic or strummed version of that anymore and most young dancers remain unaware that there is even such a structural gesture. Those kind of things were gold and I do feel that the younger generation (and foreign practitioners) are losing some important traditional cultural elements.
Take that Nana for what it is. A good piece of initial information to incorporate and store in memory if you don't already know what it is. I've seen that work and it is decent for an introduction to some of the melodies but I get what you're saying.


@Estebanana:
quote:

There is a lot to learn from older dancers trained back when, especially if in the 60’s if they were with an old teacher at the time.

I have mentioned in the past that one older dancer I had the privilege to work with heard A (La, por medio) as solea por bulerias. He also used it as the remate for solea adding that many dances did not always end "por bulerias." "Nowadays everyone ends EVERYTHING por bulerias." I always thought that was an interesting aside to the "bulerias por solea, bulerias pa escuchar, bulerias al golpe" narrative.
quote:

That’s interesting because I came up around both new bully dancers and dancers seasoned in the 60’s. So I heard both ends at the same time.

For me its practitioner: "Why are you going to grad school? You know a few things...keep studying, practicing and performing...go to Spain Bro!"
vs scholar/academia: "You are a cultural outsider. You can't write about the musical system using Western terminology...throw some post-modernism in there..."



Escribano -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 19:16:36)

quote:

Jay Kantor - Jacinto


He joined here, pissed off a lot of people, threatened serious violence and then he died in NYC.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 19:19:49)

....not to impugn the integrity nor the industriousness of the flamencologists. It’s just that the nature of the subject seems to make it impossible to find definitive answers to some questions that inevitably arise.

RNJ



Morante -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 19:43:00)

I remember Jay as having very strong opinions and little knowledge. He made a vicious attack on Estela for saying that a particular letra of tangos calls for a Gmin. I supported her, with musical examples and made an instant enemy[:D] I never met him but imagine he would have been a difficult companion.



Piwin -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 19:58:29)

Ah, got it. Thanks!



Escribano -> RE: Can a white man play the blues? (May 5 2021 20:24:49)

quote:

He made a vicious attack on Estela for saying that a particular letra of tangos calls for a Gmin. I supported her, with musical examples and made an instant enemy I never met him but imagine he would have been a difficult companion.


It went much further than that outside of this forum. Really nasty stuff.



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