RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations?

RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Full Version)

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mark indigo -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 3 2020 22:39:38)
quote: is it that Accompanying is actually difficult to do, right up there with maestro interpretations of falsetas or even higher? Enrique de Melchor said something along the lines of accompanying cante was more difficult than solo guitar. I'm not sure that is what the OP is getting it.... I don't think he's said cante accompaniment is easy compared to solo guitar, he thinks first that learning and playing the (solo guitar) material of the maestros makes it "dead music", second that flamenco guitar is or should be "improvisatory folk music" and third that there is some kind of ideal "rendition" of each palo in Plato's cave that each actual perfomance is a pale imitation of.... I think you're right that he should engage with the material, but I also think he should stop trying to figure it all out philosophically and drop a whole lot of assumptions about it that he seems to have. quotes above paragraph is based on are here below: quote: I'm confused. What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Typically, a modern performer playing an exact replica of a Paco de Lucia bulerias, or an exact replica of another greats original interpretation of a palo.) quote: When did this become "dead" music to copy and not own? quote: There's nothing wrong with classical music and "interpretation", but as we are essentially talking about an improvisatory folk music with each rendition being an interpretation of a sort of Platonic palo form, I see this as distinct.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 3 2020 23:12:38)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:22:48

kitarist -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 3 2020 23:31:02)
quote: I’m not sure why it provoked such a strong response from some people. Perhaps he touched a nerve? Not sure why you are posting this above. Perhaps the responses touched a nerve?

estebanana -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 1:19:41)
quote: mark indigo my eengleesh iz zo bad zat eeven my spellinge as a sssick axaunt. Nah, you joost byin reyding too mych Chaucer.

Piwin -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 2:35:09)
Chauceur? I ardlee no eur! Chaudesoeur on ze ozer aund iz ze name ov a varee goode moovee ov pornographie. Chaudesoeur meens "ot seesteur" een fraunch. Porn een a nonaree. classique. On zees ssred, I ssinc I wood concloode: be courrahjuice, be you, be proud ov you, becoz you can be do watt we want to do!

machopicasso -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 6:05:49)
quote: PDL stuck montoya falsetas on siroco Where on Siroco exactly? Just curious.

mark indigo -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 8:38:46)
quote: Perhaps he touched a nerve? Not for me... quote: I’m not sure why it provoked such a strong response from some people. What in particular has bothered you?

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 4 2020 8:39:36)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:22:40

mark indigo -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 8:41:09)
quote: Chauceur? I ardlee no eur! Chaudesoeur on ze ozer aund iz ze name ov a varee goode moovee ov pornographie. Chaudesoeur meens "ot seesteur" een fraunch. Porn een a nonaree. classique. On zees ssred, I ssinc I wood concloode: be courrahjuice, be you, be proud ov you, becoz you can be do watt we want to do! [:D][:D][:D]

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 4 2020 8:45:20)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:22:32

mark indigo -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 9:06:08)
quote: I was just surprised at the tone of some of the responses, yours in particular. Really? I find it really hard to accurately asses the tone from posts, without any NVC (non-verbal communication - facial expression, tone of voice, gestures etc.), and have misunderstood others and been misunderstood many times here. I try to avoid any kind of potentially inflammatory or provocative language, but don't always succeed. To be honest a large part of this thread I have been trying to figure out where Aaron is coming from and what he is getting at. It hasn't really touched any nerve or got me riled up or anything like that, and I too have found it interesting. I am pretty sensitive, hopefully to others as well as myself (people who are just sensitive to themselves are just "touchy" and a bit of a nightmare in my experience), so I am concerned whenever anyone confronts me with my behaviour. To be honest I can't really see what I have said or how I've said it that has obviously bothered you (and despite your denial you wouldn't have brought it up you it hadn't bothered you. I didn't say "upset" or "angered", I just said "bothered" which is a lot milder IMO. Surprised, bothered, same kind of thing. See, it's hard to communicate with just plain words and easy to get the wrong idea or jump to the wrong conclusion).

Ricardo -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 13:46:00)
quote: ORIGINAL: machopicasso quote: PDL stuck montoya falsetas on siroco Where on Siroco exactly? Just curious. 1:12 1:50

estebanana -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 14:09:35)
He’s French, ee Don know zee deefrenz bee tween a Chaucer and a tosser

estebanana -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 14:17:01)
Nothing has bothered me, triggered me, noticed me or alerted me to anything offensive, but I’m an idiot and I have lesser things to get twisted out of shape by.

Ricardo -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 14:20:46)
quote: I’m not sure why it provoked such a strong response from some people. Perhaps he touched a nerve? As it often goes on the internet...a fantastic question or observations illicit a slew of excellent responses, many of which point out a fundamental flaw in the premise of the question and interpretation of the observation itself...but instead of the light bulbs going off in intended manner, there is strong push back and argument AGAINST all the helpful responses, not to mention a bunch of others jumping in to reinforce the faulty logic as if to defend the invalid position, so the series of defensive back and forths from there result in frustration. Next up comes the lovely “grow a thicker skin and accept other opinions” thrown at the frustrated bunch. Nothing new under the sun.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 4 2020 14:58:39)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 20 2021 10:23:42

Piwin -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 16:25:50)
Then it sounds like kitarist was right, no? [8\|] Apologies if anything I said sounded "holier-than-thou". Certainly wasn't intended that way. I'm a self-appointed noob. All I have to share is half-backed opinions and the little personal experience I have in a flamenco environment. I have no idea what flamenco is and what it is not, except it's like porn: if you do too much of it, it can become an addiction. No wait. What was the point about porn again? [:D] edit: oh God, my dumb curiosity got the best of me and I tried to see if I could find some stats on how many times people looked up the word "flamenco" on a major porn site. I didn't find anything on that, but I did learn that the 2nd most looked for term on that site in 2019 was "alien". WTF??!!!

Mark2 -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 16:56:32)
Antonio Rey quotes Ramon in his solea as well. At 1:05 At 2:00

mark indigo -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 18:19:46)
quote: the holier than thou attitude of some self appointed experts who seemingly know “what flamenco is and what’s it’s not” and we should all bow down to their superior knowledge. I don't consider myself an expert - the more I learn the less it seems I know (because the more I realise there is to know). I have pointed out things that are easily verifiable, like Paco de Lucia having recorded others' solos (and respect to Aaron, he took that info really well, and I hope he hasn't been offended by any of this discussion). I have pointed out and questioned what I think are assumptions about flamenco, and I've quoted Enrique de Melchor (from interviews) a couple of times. If you or anyone else disagrees with anything I've said feel free to discuss. If I'm wrong and you can point out how and why I get to learn something. You really do seem to have gotten a bee in your bonnet about all this, and your posts are the most inflammatory and attacking in the thread so far....

kitarist -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 4 2020 18:52:23)
quote: ORIGINAL: rasqeo77 quote: ORIGINAL: kitarist quote: I’m not sure why it provoked such a strong response from some people. Perhaps he touched a nerve? Not sure why you are posting this above. Perhaps the responses touched a nerve? Well you missed the part where I said it was an interesting discussion in your frankly childish reply. I didn't miss it; that part was OK; it was the next two sentences that I commented on, framed in exactly the way yours were as I was hoping you'd see how yours sound on the receiving end in case you were oblivious to it from the sending end. I guess the other always available option is not to say anything [:)] But how boring would that be..

aaron peacock -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 2:26:54)
I'm fine with all of the above and have found this all rather productive. I profusely apologize in advance for for everything for anyone with upset tummy etc. It's part and parcel with talking about stuff on the interwebz and I'm ok with any skewering that comes provided that there is sufficient oregano and salt and azeite and bacon, see my aforementioned apologies to all including vegans, may test-tube bacon arrive soon, the chicken already has landed, a bit like in casablanca but more like lab grown flesh... "getting at"? I'm pretty straightforward. bizarre, never intending harm, deliberately purist and obscure, frequently others avatars of hate, nonplussed over this. I am grateful for being alive, having a living mother of 83, and father of 78, and i'm basically earnest and meaning at face value: "what do you all value in terms of your culture and how does it work for you?" not that you must be some kind of voice for all of flamenco, least of course not that in an english speaking forum that we must define flamenco for the world, but I ask you in the sense of "what is your take on this thing?" 1) now my assumptions, wrongful intentions = none. wrongful apprehension, maybe? how so? improvisatory? no, but i think it's a desirable goal, to be able to spit out spontaneous movement in chordal stackage or articulated single notes. give a flying F what papa GPQ did, what will the person who is born living and breathing fire do? what will a real dragon speak? how will their language sound? stop playing pedantic games, the lot of you, and focus on the good lord as expressed sonic vibrations. with all due respect. back to your regularly scheduled program. no ceramix broken, least of all in this house, but if i am longwinded and pointless and merely pretentious please forgive me, it was intended to roust you from the comfortable slumber of missing the point of soul-quake-age.. (almaterramoto) *a USA reference, I was once called a walking Dr Bronners bottle, FWIW. but yeah, a palo lives in a cave and you go make a pale imitation of it, and then people dance and sing with it.

aaron peacock -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 2:43:20)
What would occur if literally every single one of us was required to submit a buleria/solea/seguiriya performance of 2 minutes? even given some folks intentions to "stick to the basics" there will be variations. welcome to music.

aaron peacock -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 3:11:37)
quote: quote: I personally never manage to learn complete falsettas from anyone and never will but always find loads of inspirational points to jump off from. Now, is that because its someone else’s falsetas? No, it's my incompetence. I've learned to work with it. One would ideally proceed a bit further than I ever did...

aaron peacock -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 3:48:04)
quote: Your previous post before where I pulled the above, had tons, I mean TONS of great questions. It would take hours to go through and answer each which would be a worthy (paid) Skype seminar, doubtless. I'm more here as a moral stickler stimulating consciousnessnessesses away from idolatry. quote: However one of them was a repeat of the falseta evolution...I posted a direct response on the other thread, mark indigo a well. How many of those (free ones) did you master note for note and use in context when accompanying a singer or dancer since you reposted the question? "mastered note for note"? I was complaining about this, actually. I appreciate falseta evolution. I am interested in knowing how the game of copy-cat works. It's rather like "telephone". It doesn't completely work, that's the charm of it. Low-hanging fruit: I would wonder if I submit a crappy video of my crappy original crappy music, would one be able to say "hey those crappy falsetas are yours alone, bud" or would one say "hey here you have some bits of this, or bits of that, and I can try to think which "badly filtered modern composers ideation am I deriving this from?" With regards to the latter, I met this girl Inês at this waterfall maybe 3 months ago and I her voice alone just spontaneously mingling with notes that volunteered themselves from my guitar strings was just dandy. That was flamenco. I don't care what anyone says. in terms of playing music... there's a pandemic on ATM, you might have heard, LOL...I played a masked-up jazz set drums and bass earlier tonight, no flamenco, sorry. local association and had to end by 10:30, etc... Most of the locals in my village say something like "go play that moroccan nonsense somewhere else, now dish us something portugues" whenever I even plink some strings... about hearing "the good stuff" I'm a few hours away by car, and I don't feel the need to try to be a guitar player in such settings, and i don't feel noodly dooddly vibes in such contexts, generally, but it's not a solo guitar concert recital etc... I don't agree that rote learning of falsetas is the way to discover the harmonic structures behind flamenco. You yourself do plenty to illuminate the true structure BEHIND THOSE FALSETAS, Ricardo! I'm not asking for lessons, so lets keep it groovy and we can talk like non-equal equals. (you are a 10 zillion times better flamenco guitar player than I am, which will be evident the first time I pester you here with requests for reverse proofs of accidental plagiarism :P ) I'm not a wanna-be paco, I'm not a future student, I'm a lousy guitarist at best, and I'm also a musical genius but that's for me to know and you to find out. I'm not even a good musician, don't worry. quote: Let me put it this way...Paco Cepero many of us might consider the best for cante of all time...I also clocked him with the fastest picado yet recorded. When playing for Camaron in front of Paco de lucia, he quoted PDL’s falsetas as a nod of appreciation. You can choose the path now, rest on your laurels or get to work. I think it's highly cool to be able to just quote PDL without generally having a lexicon based upon his work, that Paco Cepero is undoubtedly a great versatile flamenco guitarist! I'm not a flamenco guitarist, despite haunting local parks with the same damned noodly doodly for years now... I do not aim for the fastest picado recorded. I compose (non-flamenco) music and generally am interested in what YOUR take, as a MUSICIAN OF SOME DECADES is on flamenco sonorities! dig? (if i were ever to be accused of fan-boi-ism it's for Nino Rota lol) skin in the game? Respect to Ricardo. I'm using my real name here, so ignore my mosquito net jokey foto, i'm not a joking around.

aaron peacock -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 5:47:24)
What I am actually going to suggest here may suprise many of you, given your "conservative" view of "human nature" We can make a Frankensteins monster here... We can establish a movement that is both interested in preserving certain essentials about FLAMENCO and also allowing the unspecified portions to stand and thus contextualize the simplicity against the infinite and allow for both truth and originality, if that makes any sense. What is required is giving up any desire to be the captain who WAS his ship incorporate. There's also stuff to be separated about virtuoso musicians and/also/not/nor/nand/ compositional structure and orchestration and the future etc.... is now a bad time to mention Jorge Prada and how he gained the European Jazz Musician of the Year award right before this pandemia? Anyway, communal improv-ready harmonic framework is like 0.2 steps away, I can design you a quick one, pick a palo. is it real? make it realer. Watch it encorpulate. no joke

Brendan -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 9:27:00)
This got some airtime in the guitar prologues of recent editions of Nuestro Flamenco, though without the crosstalk we have here, which you may find refreshing or insipid: https://www.rtve.es/alacarta/audios/nuestro-flamenco/

mark indigo -> [Deleted] (Dec. 5 2020 9:32:34)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 15 2021 21:53:17

Piwin -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 11:06:45)

devilhand -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 14:13:45)
quote: Perhaps he touched a nerve? I thought I touched a nerve of some people in this thread. Actually that was not my intention. http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=325477&p=3&mpage=1&tmode=1&smode=1 Yes, they're hiding. Some of them are even visible and active. quote: As for the question I asked in this thread, I thought what Mr. Fisk said couldn't be true. If it were true, the foro would have already been flooded with a bunch of wannabe flamenco classical guitar players. But this doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe they're hiding and lurking there from underground.

devilhand -> RE: What's up with this newfangled culture of "interpreting" others intrepretations? (Dec. 5 2020 15:32:27)
quote: I'm not sure if PdL will be remembered more as a composer than a player but I've yet to hear anyone play one of his pieces better than he did. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I haven't heard it.

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