RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Full Version)

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Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 18:27:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Well, maybe early "Transfigured Night" Schoenberg is fine. But how are you going to accompany traditional cante with atonal style? Or 12-tone?

No, I wasn't aware of that particular event. However, I know a number of composers who got influenced by flamenco; some of them are Russians.



I'm funnin' you grisha.Transfigured Night por Solea.Urt ur urp tweet groan.Ayeee

One of Schoenberg's tenet was that you should be able to turn the music upside down and it should work.W/ his music i think it's true.



Mike_Kinny -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 18:31:02)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:41:45



Grisha -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 18:34:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Ogilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Well, maybe early "Transfigured Night" Schoenberg is fine. But how are you going to accompany traditional cante with atonal style? Or 12-tone?

No, I wasn't aware of that particular event. However, I know a number of composers who got influenced by flamenco; some of them are Russians.



I'm funnin' you grisha.Transfigured Night por Solea.Urt ur urp tweet groan.Ayeee

One of Schoenberg's tenet was that you should be able to turn the music upside down and it should work.W/ his music i think it's true.


I know, I wasn't serious either. I expressed my opinion, I respect yours, and now I am off to practice.



Doitsujin -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 19:01:01)

quote:

Cante not important? Cante is the heart of flamenco. No cante, no guitar.


? I think you got something very wrong here.

1st. Im talking about normal peoples taste. Not flamenco fanboys like us. About Pacos fame in the world and not within ...flamenco fanboys..like us. Ok?

2nd. Thats nice that you think so. But since it was not told by god to moses and he did not hammer it into stone plates, it stays just an opinion that is open for discussion.


P.S. No guitar = martinete... aww... [:@]

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yohan -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 19:08:08)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
But since it was not told by god to moses and he did not hammer it into stone plates, it stays just an opinion that is open for discussion.

..you don't know that for sure...maybe moses wasnt that into flamenco so he forgot to mentioned it to the others.
[:D]

anyway back OT, another thing I dislike about old cante is that the sound quality is so bad. Really all the hiss and rustle annoys me, definitely when its played loud.
does anyway know some new records with but with old cante? Al the records I found were in really poor quality.


(btw this martinete from duquende I really, really like:
*cant find it on youtube, its titled "en calor de la fragua"
it has no guitar but really great compas)



Doitsujin -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 19:13:00)

To get out of the laserpoints of the guns of some cante lovers.

I also like cante flamenco. No all. Some singers. But I stay cool about rumors and definitions that are... only true for some people. I dont just jump on trains,.. I have my own opinion, that stays flexible. [;)]



Mike_Kinny -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 19:17:14)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:41:12



Doitsujin -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 19:19:34)

So your master said... blablablublalalalbalabala.... ... fine. [;)]

I like you mike, but I have the impression that you are a little bit too deep inside this stuff. It almost sounds like a religion from your mouth.

And as I wrote in another thread. I dont argue about religion. That means, I wont go on writing in this thread because religion is dangerous.

Have fun, Im out.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 21:56:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
But since it was not told by god to moses and he did not hammer it into stone plates, it stays just an opinion that is open for discussion.

..you don't know that for sure...maybe moses wasnt that into flamenco so he forgot to mentioned it to the others.
[:D]

anyway back OT, another thing I dislike about old cante is that the sound quality is so bad. Really all the hiss and rustle annoys me, definitely when its played loud.
does anyway know some new records with but with old cante? Al the records I found were in really poor quality.


(btw this martinete from duquende I really, really like:
*cant find it on youtube, its titled "en calor de la fragua"
it has no guitar but really great compas)


There is a ton of stuff that doesn't sound the way you describe.
Anything by Terremoto de jerez The greatest singer of the 20th century is a good singer to try.
The entire "Chant du Monde series" (Maybe 20 CDs)which contains the Fantastic recording of Perla de Cadiz>
Then there is a recent 2005 release of Tomas Pavon which contain the only 28 recordings he ever made.
The saetas sound as though the were recorded yesterday.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 21:59:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Ogilby

quote:

ORIGINAL: yohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin
But since it was not told by god to moses and he did not hammer it into stone plates, it stays just an opinion that is open for discussion.

..you don't know that for sure...maybe moses wasnt that into flamenco so he forgot to mentioned it to the others.
[:D]

anyway back OT, another thing I dislike about old cante is that the sound quality is so bad. Really all the hiss and rustle annoys me, definitely when its played loud.
does anyway know some new records with but with old cante? Al the records I found were in really poor quality.


Heres a youtube link
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_playlists&search_query=Terremoto+de+jerez&uni=1



Mike_Kinny -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 22:07:25)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:41:26



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 22:48:48)

Richard, you speak coded and make me intrigued. What is flatting the voice in the style of Extremudera tangos? Any youtube examples? Why can't the guitar do that?
[/quote]

Here's an example that the flatting doesn't work



estebanana -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 23:09:20)

Richard, you've been here for 5 days and you've made 47 posts. I'm impressed, at this rate you'll make fellow before me. I also like your jokes, which I get the references to. So keep it up Geronimo.

You young knuckle heads should listen to Richard because he knows his cante an has good taste.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 6 2010 0:23:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Richard, you've been here for 5 days and you've made 47 posts. I'm impressed, at this rate you'll make fellow before me. I also like your jokes, which I get the references to. So keep it up Geronimo.

You young knuckle heads should listen to Richard because he knows his cante an has good taste.


Thanks
You know of course that Picasso signed Manitas de Plata's guitar and was a fan...but yes he would have played a blanca.
Picasso was given a special dinner in his honor which they served Paella.They asked him how he liked it and he replied it was only missing one thing.........
a cook.
Geronimo... i also make Santa fe (santo Domingo tribe)inspired Turquoise jewelry.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 6 2010 2:27:49)

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Doitsujin -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 6 2010 8:20:50)

quote:

I was only trying to tease you. Otherwise we share same ideas about cante.


[:D] lol...you bastard! that worked well.[:D] I was completely confused. Like talking to a wall. omg!haha I thought for a moment you were such a fanatic with tunnel vision, too.



gj Michelob -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 6 2010 12:43:00)

I apologize for restoring the original topic, but I must refer to this wonderful performance to which Anders directed me about a year ago, when I submitted my own share of reluctance to Cante.

Isn’t it indeed the Voice-Guitar’s pinnacle and heavenly a marriage of the two.

[now, one year later] I could not agree more with Grisha, as to the importance of understanding and enjoying flamenco ”songs” to appreciate Falmenco guitar. I suddenly feel a sense of emptiness in a guitar solo, as longing for the voice which originally asked the guitar to play.




Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 6 2010 14:42:58)

quote:

Here's an example that the flatting doesn't work



[There are lots of players here who have good taste. Some are more diplomatic and more informative. So far mr. Ogilby has not posted anything enlightening. Perhaps I haven't either but I do post a falseta or vid on occasion.


Some remarks are made in jest and must be taken as jest. i assume english is your second language.
You don't hear the pitch problem w/ Chiqui ?

What do i teach you.I thought this was a foro not free lessons>It's nice if someone puts up a free lesson.
So as a gesture of good will here is my favorite PDL video.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 6 2010 15:11:46)

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Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 6 2010 15:26:12)

You don't hear the pitch problem w/ Chiqui ?
[/quote]

Yes and Yes.

Big pitch problem. The argument, your argument, arose out of the idea that cante and guitar have not influenced each other. Many chromatic notes, I would say, have been influenced by the guitar and its passing harmonies. It is a different argument to say someone sings with poor pitch than to say that the guitar has not influenced the cante, and give the flat note as an example.

[So you misunderstood what I was trying to say.However you understood what i was saying or trying to say as evidenced by the rest of your post.
Chiqui has great rhythm and they are all having fun but when she tries to flat/bend the tone she goes off pitch.If she were an Opera singer she'd be Florence Foster jenkins



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 6 2010 15:42:17)

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Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 6 2010 15:48:59)

[Sorry if I have been too sensitive.
The vid was funny as hell.
[/quote]

Did you listen to the PDLvideo?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 6 2010 15:50:44)

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Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 6 2010 15:56:42)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

I have heard it before. Always makes me laugh.

That is what happens when you mix flamenco and Schoenberg.


Shoenberg's late works.I undestand Paco thought it was funny.
Ygngie malsteen has one done by the same fellow and he got all mad and made you tube take it down.Of course it was up again in 5 minutes.



Doitsujin -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 6 2010 16:34:19)

Whatever..just decided to shut up with jokes and participate! ;.)

I like that! Same time same singer, different guitarist.




Mike_Kinny -> [Deleted] (Nov. 6 2010 17:34:30)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:40:54



estebanana -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 7 2010 21:34:20)

Ogilby, you missed one detail.

Transfigured Night was composed before Schoenberg used dodecaphonic composition. Verklarte Nacht is more like late Wager, or Brahms on acid. It does not work upside down. What Schoenberg actually meant was that one strategy for using the 12 tone row is to make it works as a palindrome, the row is mirrored. It can be used forwards and then flipped and used tail first.

Schoenberg was first a Wagnerian in harmony and the chromatic emphasis in Wagner influenced him to embrace the 12 tone system. So in terms of how Schoenberg can realistically relate to flamenco cante is through Wagners use of chromatic passing notes, like those found in Flamenco.

Even thought there is no reason to relate Schoenberg to flamenco, if you want to use an example of a 12 tone composition something later like the violin concerto from 1933 would work.

:)



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 8 2010 0:48:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Ogilby, you missed one detail.

Transfigured Night was composed before Schoenberg used dodecaphonic composition. Verklarte Nacht is more like late Wager, or Brahms on acid. It does not work upside down. What Schoenberg actually meant was that one strategy for using the 12 tone row is to make it works as a palindrome, the row is mirrored. It can be used forwards and then flipped and used tail first.

Schoenberg was first a Wagnerian in harmony and the chromatic emphasis in Wagner influenced him to embrace the 12 tone system. So in terms of how Schoenberg can realistically relate to flamenco cante is through Wagners use of chromatic passing notes, like those found in Flamenco.

Even thought there is no reason to relate Schoenberg to flamenco, if you want to use an example of a 12 tone composition something later like the violin concerto from 1933 would work.

:)


At last some one w/ a sense of humor.



estebanana -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 8 2010 1:54:10)

Don't worry dude, I got your back on the jokes.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 8 2010 2:15:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Don't worry dude, I got your back on the jokes.


Flamenco sin cachondeo no hay Flamenco



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