RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Full Version)

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Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 4 2010 22:54:44)

Some of the tones in the cante have been influenced by "modern" chords in some cases.


I think it's the other way around.Camaron flats his voice after the style of the Extremudera tangos.(BTW his sense of pitch is so accute he gets away w/ this; others are not so fortunate)
The guitar attempts this ,not so happily.
I asked Paco if he listened to Gabor Szabo (look him up)a very famous jazz player since he was trying to play jazz .he had never heard of him.
Hence the problem of chordal voicings.You got to know your Joe Pass et. al. if you want to go all jazzy.(It would be a blessing to all listeners)



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 4 2010 23:02:04)

[
-I dont speak spanish so I have no clue what they singing about, I think I then would enjoy cante even more.


Did you know that PDL is quoted as saying "For the first 10 years I never listened to the words;Then I only listened to the words not the music"
It's a right brain ,left brain problem.
Do you think knowing what Opera singers are singing about is a good idea?
Pretty banal stuff for the most part .The meaning is in the music.That's why any one can like it w/o the words.Words we don't need no stinking words.(Just for typing annoying posts)



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 4 2010 23:08:54)

He has chosen a solo career but he is still one of the greatest accompanists. He could accompany the singers with little or no compas without getting lost, an ability that is very difficult to develop.


Who said he couldn't accompany Mr. red herring?
His double cd w/ fosforito is a reference book for all the cantes



Grisha -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 4 2010 23:17:14)

Why necessarily jazzy? Listen to Manuel de Falla - was he jazzy? What's wrong with extending the harmonic language?

I think the reason flamenco is so popular these days is that it keeps evolving. When it stops changing it will die.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 4 2010 23:19:31)

quote:

Some of the tones in the cante have been influenced by "modern" chords in some cases.


Everything is influenced by everything else. Can't be avoided.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 4 2010 23:36:05)

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Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 0:44:14)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

quote:

Who said he couldn't accompany Mr. red herring?


Had to start here. Touche.

quote:

I think it's the other way around.

Dm-C-Bb-A. Melodically speaking you can use Phrygian for all of this until the last chord at which point you have to raise the third. When Paco and others began introducing passing chords, singers had to adapt. Now, one could argue that passing chords have no place in flamenco but they are here to stay.

Passing chords were here long before PDL.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 0:46:48)

[
quote:

I think the reason flamenco is so popular these days is that it keeps evolving. When it stops changing it will die.


I agree with that. Several people have noted that flamenco was dying out, an art of Old men, until Paco and Camaron came around. They made it cool to be flamenco....and now we have Amos Lara.[:D]

[You make this up.
Did solea change?
Did Siguriyas change.What are you using for logic?



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 0:51:10)

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Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 0:53:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

[[Everything is influenced by everything else. Can't be avoided.


Bumper stick philosophy.
How about 'Everything is beautiful in it's own way"?:-)



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 0:55:37)

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Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 1:01:07)

PS Did you check out the Chuflas? Prety nice evolution eh?
[/quote]

If you believe it.What came first Jaleo or chufla?
I read buleria is from solea invened by Loco mateo.(I think Pohren says this)I also read it came from Alegrias.
No way to document anything.
Steingress says in a book Flamenco began in 1850
Do you believe that?It's in a book.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 1:02:28)

Whats next a spell check?
quote:


ORIGINAL: romerito

quote:

Bumper stick philosophy.


Learn how to use the quotation button please. And that was not my quote although it is true. Men much more educated and intelligent than you (no offense) in Sociology and Anthropology have made this point much differently in ways that are anything but bumpersticker.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 1:05:05)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

quote:

Bumper stick philosophy.


Learn how to use the quotation button please. And that was not my quote although it is true. Men much more educated and intelligent than you (no offense) in Sociology and Anthropology have made this point much differently in ways that are anything but bumpersticker.

Sounds like Physics ;anyway you slice it's pop wisdom



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 1:05:24)

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Pgh_flamenco -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 1:44:46)

quote:

Whats next a spell check?


I would put writing in coherent sentences with proper punctuation before this. Like many people on this forum I enjoy vigorous debate, but dislike sifting through poor grammar and punctuation for the meaning the person posting intended.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 2:14:43)

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Pgh_flamenco -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 2:25:16)

quote:

You must hate Flo. I think he's pretty cool.


No! I don't hate Flo. He found a program recently that cleans up grammar, etc. I was really impressed that he went to the trouble to do that. There's a lilt to Florian's posts and once you get accustomed to it his posts are pretty easy to follow.



Mike_Kinny -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 5:59:49)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:42:51



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 15:49:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike_Kinny

quote:

I think it's the other way around.Camaron flats his voice after the style of the Extremudera tangos.(BTW his sense of pitch is so accute he gets away w/ this; others are not so fortunate)
The guitar attempts this ,not so happily.


Richard, you speak coded and make me intrigued. What is flatting the voice in the style of Extremudera tangos? Any youtube examples? Why can't the guitar do that?


He fools w/ the pitch all over the place.The guitar is in half tones so you can kind of fake it w/ chordal coloring. Como Agua contains this.
On the forbidden web site there are cds that just contain one palo.There are 3-4 tangos cds.I would say in all his tangos he does the flatting.

More interesting are his Alegrias.Some are Epic then there are the ones where death is in the wings....very sad



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 16:00:07)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Why necessarily jazzy? Listen to Manuel de Falla - was he jazzy? What's wrong with extending the harmonic language?

I think the reason flamenco is so popular these days is that it keeps evolving. When it stops changing it will die.


Manuel de falla? how about Schoenberg and Klang....plus You can play it upside down.

Flamenco is popular today because of Ottmar , the gypsie kings and like pap.
Mairena said"Only 10% of the spanish people like flamenco and of that 10% only 10% know anything about it"

Do you think Camaron is popular because of Alegrias,Solea and siguriyas?
Como Agua is the answer to the question.

a better bumper sticker
"The more everything changes the more it stays the same"



Grisha -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 16:52:17)

I think you are pushing it too far with Schoenberg.

By the way, I enjoy "Como el agua" greatly.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 17:22:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

I think you are pushing it too far with Schoenberg.

By the way, I enjoy "Como el agua" greatly.


Who doesn't like Como Agua?That's the point.
Shoenberg goes too far?
You're just against change.I have it on serious authority that w/o change flamenco will die.

What it really needs is Jazz /flamenco made up by people that don't know Miles Davis from the Carpenters.

BTW Did you know that Debussy was very influenced by Flamenco after a Quadro visited the Paris opera @1910



Grisha -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 17:40:00)

Well, maybe early "Transfigured Night" Schoenberg is fine. But how are you going to accompany traditional cante with atonal style? Or 12-tone?

No, I wasn't aware of that particular event. However, I know a number of composers who got influenced by flamenco; some of them are Russians.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 17:43:10)

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Doitsujin -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 17:47:30)

quote:

Do you think Camaron is popular because of Alegrias,Solea and siguriyas?
Como Agua is the answer to the question.


Yep, and for Paco is was entre dos aguas... THE rumbita.



Mike_Kinny -> [Deleted] (Nov. 5 2010 18:14:55)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 26 2010 21:42:22



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 18:18:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doitsujin

quote:

Do you think Camaron is popular because of Alegrias,Solea and siguriyas?
Como Agua is the answer to the question.


Yep, and for Paco is was entre dos aguas... THE rumbita.


I think it's brilliant .Paco really rips.No one has ever covered it w/ the elan w/ which he plays it.
However i dislike all the thousand of off shoots.offshoots like ottmar and the rest.



Richard Ogilby -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 18:21:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: romerito

quote:

Mairena said"Only 10% of the spanish people like flamenco and of that 10% only 10% know anything about it"


Read that in a book?[:-]


Yep it had pages and everything.



Doitsujin -> RE: How much do you really enjoy cante flamenco? (Nov. 5 2010 18:25:07)

quote:

What's wrong with entre dos aguas? Paco can accompany cante perfectly well.


Thats not important. That is only important if you want to get prestige within some freaky puro cante flamenco fans. ;.) (Which is pretty ok) But normal people (who are not experienced with flamenco) dont care how good he can play for a singer. They would not even hear a difference between Ottmar and Paco. The people just liked the rumba. Paco didnt become known coz of Camaron or other singers. He became known coz of a good rumba. Entre dos aguas and with the help of Lauglin and meola. Scalenoodeling basically..



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