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Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 6 2004 17:24:25)
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zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 6 2004 19:22:26)
quote: Which brings up another point since 12,3,6,8,10 and 12,3,7,8,10 accentuation are so prevalent, how can they BOTH have twos underneath them if one style accents 6 and the other style accents 7? The math doesn't work for that to be true. The binary rhythm is always superimposed over every rhythmic twist bulerías offers, and there are many! There is no other way a beat on 7 would make sense, certainly not by trying to accent twelves. Without the binary framework it's like spinning plates...you can only keep it up for so long. I do wish people would just spend a couple of minutes doing it with any bulerías recording, from 1925 Niña de los Peines, to 2004 José Mercé. Words are clearly inadequate. Estela 'Zata'

Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 6 2004 20:07:45)
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Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 6 2004 20:32:05)
Andy, Tap your fingers on the table 12,12345678910. or 12,123,(456)789 10. Now tap your feet in 2's (in two sets of three 2's). Doesn't that feel like a "fundamental" base? Like an intro to a pop song and then they come in with the heavy bass and drums and everybody gets the rhythm? If you listen to the opening or theme of "Tubular Bells", the rhythmic sequence appers to "wrong foot" you. That's because they've taken the fundamental "click track" away. But they used it in the original recording, otherwise the musician would have had to guess at the time intervals which is not trustworthy. And the overall effect is to make it more "etherial". But if you tap you're foot strongly to the underlying rhythm, you can see how it's done. I really don't believe Flamencos count 2 lots of 3's then 3 lots of 2's. I think they stick to 2,4,6 and just double it for a full compás or stick with it for the number of "half" compáses they are required to. Meanwhile, they have the 12 count structure and traditional emphasised beats already tattooed on their brains, so everything fits in easily. That's also why I think they have no problem whatsoever in dealing with "half" compases in Bulerias. Again, just my thoughts! Ron Oops! just edited this to make my timing count clearer....

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 6 2004 20:41:23)
quote: I do listen to cante for a couple hours every day, every day for many years and some things I hear could agree with your theory, but I also hear things that do not. Also, I have two good friends from Jerez and when we're sitting around playing or listening to music they clap and pat their foot in threes if they do not know the music of a particular bulerias, not twos. One could make the argument that they are interpreting TWO threes as the basic unit of bulerias, but I don't see or hear them making twos. Andy, this is not a theory, mine or anyone else's. Not many people have analyzed what makes bulerías tick, but it's been ticking for over a hundred years. I've already addressed everything you say. When you listen to cante all those hours, I have the feeling you're waiting for something to jump out at you phrased in twos. It is not going to happen. You have to put the twos and then observe the structure that unfolds, like peering into a crystal and seeing all the facets. Your friends can pat in 3s or not at all, they can "waggle their feet aimlessly" as I wrote in another message...if they play bulerías in compás, the twos are guiding their way even if they never stopped to analyze what they're doing, something few people do. Analysis however is valuable for people who approach flamenco from another culture and need to catch up quick. I wish I'd saved all the messages of people who wrote privately or posted how they resisted the idea of a binary compás in bulerías and tried it to prove it couldn't work...only to discover it opened a very large door that allowed them to play solid bulerías as never before, improvise, and accompany any rhythmic quirk thrown at them with absolute authority. I also wrote that anyone who is secure in bulerías doesn't need to analyze anything. The young man whose clip began this conversation probably thinks he plays in compás but it's just a string of notes. Almost in compás is out of compás. I've got my bulerías house in order, but from the continuous messages on this topic my guess is not everyone else is completely confident with this exciting and endlessly surprising form. Ron just posted some comments worth considering... Estela 'Zata'

Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 6 2004 20:47:52)
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zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 6 2004 20:52:20)
quote: Nope, three feels more like the fundamental base to me, Ron. Threes not superimposed by twos yields a simple waltz, with no trace of the power of bulerías.

Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 6 2004 21:35:59)
Yeah Andy, Sure, threes will "fit". But is that honestly the rhythm which attracted you to this music in the first place? Or was it that "contradictory" superimposition of rhythms that is so evident in really good gitano bulerias? I think that sound comes from the 2's fundamental rhythm clashing with the 3's which gives Bulerias that unique sound. I'm not trying to prove you wrong or anything, Andy. I'm just looking for, and want to know the truth as much as you do! cheers Ron

Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 6 2004 22:01:27)
A wee Addendum to what I said above. If you listen to any good Flamenco music you find that the "offbeats" are constantly emphasised and the "onbeats" suppressed as much as possible. This seems to be the joy of Flamencos IMO. Actually, the same applies in Brasil, where I lived for over a year. Samba and it's offspring Bossa Nova, have a real "offbeat" rhythm (they way they do it there). It's a tricky rhythm to get properly, but it can be reduced to a single and constant foot tap, but nobody ever does that explicitly when playing, singing or dancing. That would be considered "naff" LOL! But that's the beat they feel internally. As Estela says, you can feel that beat filling the atmosphere of the room, though it's never actually highlighted by the performers. cheers Ron

Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 6 2004 23:45:17)
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Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 6 2004 23:51:28)
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Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 7 2004 0:10:08)
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Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 8:17:40)
Hola Andy, I think I've got it....we're discussing two different things here. You are describing palmas patterns. I see palmas as another instrument, to add more rhythmic flavour, not for keeping time. The example you posted has a very strong 2's pulse to it IMO. I think that is the pulse all the performers are relating, or referencing to. By the way, it's a lovely intro! cheers Ron

Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 8:30:30)
quote: Interpreted in twos yields an incomprehensible pattern of dots & dashes: X - - X - - - X X - X - Andy it would be:- X- X- X- X- X- X- If tapping your foot, then your foot should be "up" for the 3 and the 7. Ron

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 8:48:41)
quote: Interpreted in twos yields an incomprehensible pattern of dots & dashes: X - - X - - - X X - X - The compás is not accurately represented here because you forgot to show an X on 2, 4 and 6 and ignore the redoubling or reinforcement that occurs naturally in this case on 12, 8 and 10. As far as 'incomprehensible', any graphic representation of what goes on in bulerías is going to look like Einstein's notes before he hit upon E=mc2. And this in turn is the reason so many teachers present the simplistic 12, 3, 6, 8, 10. By ignoring the twos you've lost the "push-you-pull-me" (syncopation) which is the essence of bulerías. "12-3-7-8-10" cannot sustain an entire bulerías, and the most important function of compás is to provide a constant pulse that both interpreters and observers can relate to. Estela 'Zata'

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 8:55:41)
quote: "Threes superimposed by twos" yields a six-count bulerias pattern that agrees with your theory. This I often hear in cante, Jerez style bulerias and bulerias en media compas. But not in every bulerias compas pattern. I'm not sure, but it looks like you're referring to: 1-2 (3) 4-5 (6) ...which is not the same as: 1-2-3, 4-5-6 In either case there are two sets of three beats, but the accents are radically different, and in that difference lies the identity of bulerías or waltz, as the case may be. Estela 'Zata'

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 9:02:29)
quote: I uploaded a sample in the Music Uploads section called "Bulerias media compas example (no twos)" Sounds like garden-variety bulerías to me...why do you think there are no twos? Estela 'Zata'

Jon Boyes -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 9:19:04)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M I think I've got it....we're discussing two different things here. You are describing palmas patterns. I see palmas as another instrument, to add more rhythmic flavour, not for keeping time. The example you posted has a very strong 2's pulse to it IMO. That's precisely what I thought (only just found this thread, I posted under Andy's clip). Ron is it me or is this really a huge fuss over nothing? Describing the underlying driving pulse of something, and describing the various different patterns of accents one could superimpose over the top of this are two different things. Andy - when you play bulerias, how do you tap your foot to keep time (and I mean to keep in regular tempo)? Do you have a different way of tapping your foot for every variation of bulerias you play, corresponding to whatever accents are stressed in that style? BTW, as an observation on this twos thing, throughout Tomatito's Encuentro video you can see him tapping his foot (well, his knee moving up and down as his foot is out of sight) in a regular rhythm, on every second beat of the buleria. This is in spite of what the two palmeros are doing. Jon

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 9:25:12)
quote: Do you have a different way of tapping your foot for every variation of bulerias you play, corresponding to whatever accents are stressed in that style? I've actually seen this. When it occurs, the rhythm flows in the wrong direction...instead of the foot telling the falseta where to go, the falseta is making the foot move. Needless to say, this defeats the purpose of foot-tapping and the end result is unsatisfactory. Estela 'Zata'

Jim Opfer -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 13:04:40)
Ron, quote: Now tap your feet in 2's (in two sets of three 2's). This makes sense to me, the pattern I can understand is: 12 - 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 10 - or in threes 1 2 3 1 2 3 with remate on 10 or end of second group of three. But to feel this I have to think of groups of three not two. Cheers Jim.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 7 2004 13:15:59)
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Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 7 2004 13:22:08)
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Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 7 2004 13:25:02)
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Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 7 2004 13:31:34)
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Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 14:17:38)
Nope, Jim and Andy, That's not what I'm meaning... I mean just tapping your foot on beats 2,4,6,8,10 and 12. Regardless if the compás is accenting 3 or 7 or anything else. eg..when I hit the heavily accented 3 in Bulerias chording compás, my foot is up, not down. So thinking of it as two pairs, (which is useful), it goes. 2,4,6 8,10,12 ie six equally spaced beats covering the whole 12 beat cycle. I don't know how to explain it any other way! Just tapping on the "even" beats. Nothing more exotic than that! cheers Ron

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 14:19:03)
quote: If it is a 12-count rhythm, I tap my foot on 12-3-8-10 (works for 6-8 or 7-8 accentuation) If it is as 6-count rhythm, I tap my foot on 12-4 or 12-3 depending on the rhythm(counted 12-1-2-3-4-5) If it is a 3-count rhythm, I tap my foot on 12-3-6-9 When a musician beats his or her foot it sets a physical metronome in motion which will not vary, and then play to it. What would be the reason for doing the reverse? According to this technique, if you play out of compás, the foot follows right along. Estela 'Zata'

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 14:27:46)
quote: It's pounding 12 and 3 like a jackhammer! How can you hear 12, 2 and 4 in that? 12 is one of the twos beats, and 3 is a common but not constant accent in bulerías (1-2, 4-5 certainly has no use for it). But if you don't believe in constants there's no point in discussing compás which is, by definition, a constant. Estela 'Zata

Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 7 2004 14:41:21)
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Jon Boyes -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 14:47:20)
quote: ORIGINAL: AndyB P.S. I forgot. There is also another 6-count rhythms with accents 12-2-4 and that's how I tap my foot for that one. I think this is the rhythm that Estela is talking about. But the way I see it, that's only 1 of a half-dozen patterns, not THE universal pattern. Andy, you keep coming back to patterns of accents, and thats not what we're talking about. Look beyond them. Think simpler, not more complicated. I agree with Ron. Here's another analogy - put on any bulerias CD (including the 'not in twos' clip you just posted), and without thinking about it , walk around the room or up the stairs in time with the music. If its a fast buleria, it will be a brisk walk, but you should still be able to walk/step along in time with the music. There's your metronome. Now as you are walking you can clap out any pattern of accents you like, to fit the pattern of the buleria style you are listening to. The walking however, remains constant, does not change, and you don't have to think about it because your body does it naturally. Jon

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