RE: 2s in bulerias examples

RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 20:08:13)
My God! This discussion has run to 11 pages and I have the feeling it's still not done with.[:D] (BTW it was Jon who mentioned Tomatito keeping time in 2's....) It's a healthy discussion though, so long as folk don't lose the rag.... I remember reading a book on how International Scientific Standards came about (like the Volt, the Ohm, and the Ampere). The writer said, you can get 30 top Scientists in a room and have them discuss the latest, groundbreaking ideas, and they will all generally be in accord. But ask them to discuss, something very simple and fundamental....and you've got a major fight on your hands LOL! So I guess the same wisdom still applies. The main thing is. Folk who post on this forum, do so in order to generously share their knowledge with others, or ask questions. So let's all "keep the heid" (head) and not let it get into an issue of one's entrenched values against anothers. In the British Parliament, you are forced to address the other person as "The Honorable Member", even though you may hate their guts or their ideas LOL! There's a lot to be said for that IMO. By the way, I just sprained my left wrist today, lifting something awkwardly. Everything's OK except for any rotational moves and then it's agony. Haven't tried out the guitar yet...I think I'll leave it till Sunday and we'll see. Grrrr![:@][:@][:@] cheers Ron

duende -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 7 2004 21:21:36)
Does it matter how u feel as long as your in compas? I think not. You can feel 12 beats 6 beats or 120 and a half. As long as you know where you are and the music that comes out is right so what. Early PDL ALWAYS do al-golpe with his fot Tomatito does 6. 12,2,4,6,8,10, so what. Watch the late jazz pianist Thelonius moonks feet. There walking ,stompin´and danceing all over the place.[8D] Henrik

zata -> RE: Todd's latest Buleria (Jul. 8 2004 0:16:56)
quote: I too would be interested to know what Zata means, with some specifics. I have heard Zata say this about some of Todd's work in the past, and I just can't hear it. Jon, I happened to see this on the first page of this discussion. I don't know who Todd is, and never heard anything he played before...you've got me mixed up with someone else on this point. Estela 'Zata'

Jon Boyes -> RE: Todd's latest Buleria (Jul. 8 2004 8:41:09)
quote: ORIGINAL: zata quote: I too would be interested to know what Zata means, with some specifics. I have heard Zata say this about some of Todd's work in the past, and I just can't hear it. Jon, I happened to see this on the first page of this discussion. I don't know who Todd is, and never heard anything he played before...you've got me mixed up with someone else on this point. Estela 'Zata' I'm pretty sure I'm right, I'l try and dig out the actual conversation which I think was on FT. My recollection was that you used the word 'shaky' describe Todd's compas, but acknowledged he was a skilled guitar player (and of course pointed out that without compas...). I think Todd went up the wall, so it shouldn't be too hard to find. Jon

Jon Boyes -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 8:58:52)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M My God! This discussion has run to 11 pages and I have the feeling it's still not done with.[:D] (BTW it was Jon who mentioned Tomatito keeping time in 2's....) Yep. In fact, in one of the few flamenco guitar lessons I have had (with a former student of Juan Martin), we were jamming some Tomatito bulerias stuff and I commented on how difficult the timing was to get to grips with. My teacher pointed out that to keep it together (in compas), Tomatito taps his foot steadily in twos. Sure enough, his knee is bobbing up and down in twos in the encuentro vid as I said. As another example of what Zata has not 'discovered', take a look at Juan Martin's video on bulerias, he talks about feeling the pulse of bulerias in twos as well. I'll dig it out when I have a moment and give a quote. Jon

zata -> RE: Todd's latest Buleria (Jul. 8 2004 9:28:00)
quote: My recollection was that you used the word 'shaky' describe Todd's compas, but acknowledged he was a skilled guitar player (and of course pointed out that without compas...). I think Todd went up the wall, so it shouldn't be too hard to find. Jon, I had no recollection of this, but that means precious little after 50 so checked the archives at flamenco-teacher using just my name + Todd to make sure everything would come up. I think I remember this person now (Simon can tell you I advocated his being admitted here). There were five messages in total and in each case you'll find I gave straightforward answers to rather sophomoric and offensive messages including one where he suggested I had no right to post at flamenco-teacher since "you clearly don't play guitar", and I clarified that I was accompanying cante and baile for several years before devoting all my time to cante. As a journalist I'm very sensitive to the merest suggestion of dubious motives or behaviour, but I think now it's clear you confused me with someone else who said this guitarist's compás por bulerías is shaky...which is in itself relevant. Estela 'Zata'

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 9:38:19)
quote: As another example of what Zata has not 'discovered', take a look at Juan Martin's video on bulerias, he talks about feeling the pulse of bulerias in twos as well. Good grief! "discovered" [8D]. All I can say to doubters is "Go east young men"...then south to Andalucía...get invited, or sneak into the first fiesta you hear about, then just sit and watch how bulerías is handled, and draw you own conclusions. It's too bad some people need to get nasty about a simple discussion of compás...I guess we flamenco freaks are a self-selected group of passionate souls. zata

Jon Boyes -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 9:59:28)
quote: ORIGINAL: zata quote: As another example of what Zata has not 'discovered', take a look at Juan Martin's video on bulerias, he talks about feeling the pulse of bulerias in twos as well. Good grief! "discovered" [8D]. Just in case my post wasn't clear Z., I wasn't inferring that you were claiming some discovery, I was quoting Andy's post from above where he used that term (hence the quote marks.) Jon

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 10:06:21)
quote: Just in case my post wasn't clear Z., I wasn't inferring that you were claiming some discovery, I was quoting Andy's post from above where he used that term (hence the quote marks.) Yes, I understood that Jon, but appreciate the clarification all the same. I know how these things go because I came of Internet age at flamencodisc (Temple). In that hostile atmosphere your sentence would be construed as "Zata claims she discovered bulerías" [:D] and most people have no stomach to investigate further. zata

Florian -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 11:24:08)
Mibe for the best of this place let us change the subject because noone is going to give up on his/her idea, just agree to disagree and move on. I liked it better when we were beeing productive, sharing audio, doing group songs, sharing exercises.

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zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 12:13:57)
quote: Bulerias is shown in the family of terinary rhythms (threes), not binary (twos). One last try Andy, but don't get ruffled, it's only music [&:]... Faustino is distinguishing, as all analysts distinguish, myself included, between the tangos-tientos-farruca-zambra family, and all the rest. That does not mean that the compás of siguiriya is the same as verdiales, so this must be taken in context. He could have elaborated that the measure of the binary family is 2 (or 4) twos, while bulerías is 3 (or 6) twos. A simple "one and two" does not make a compás of tangos any more than it does of bulerías. Remember, the twos that flow through all bulerías never displace, and always enhance every other type of pulse...the only conflict that's created is the controlled syncopation of the rhythm. Estela 'Zata'

Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 12:25:53)
quote: Ron, check you Faustino Nunez "Understanding Flamenco." Bulerias is shown in the family of terinary rhythms (threes), not binary (twos). I totally agree Andy. And I also agree that often the accented beats in Bulerias are the popular 3, 6, 8, 10, 12 3, 7,8, 10, 12 plus the "al golpe" accents etc, etc For some reason, when you hear Bulerias played to a Flamenco audience, you can hear the audience's feet stomping away in 2's. Now, I thought this was odd. I tried it myself, but found it awkward to "not" tap on the 3 or maybe the 7 depending on what I was trying to play. As Estela said..my foot was really following my falsetas. So if my falseta was slightly "out" then my foot would follow and be slightly "out" as well. So my foot was an unreliable metronome. After reading Estela's original post, I remembered Paco Peña playing Bulerias, with his foot tapping in 2's. (He was tapping toe-heel-toe-heel which made a nice accompaniment also.) I then saw several other Jerez guitarists do the same. (not "toe-heel" stuff, but just gently toe tapping every second beat). So I reckoned this might be something worth investigating. I know everyone says PdL taps 1,2 - 4,5 etc But he does that loudly, I believe as an accompaniment and not as a time keeping mechanism. Some of the Jerez guitarists I've heard may not have a fantastic technique, however they sometimes play falsetas that meander all over the place and it's simply not possible to follow them trying to count 3, 6, 8, 10, 12. You end up with a headache. They'll sometimes play a few compases of 12, then slip an 18 count phrase in, then back to 12, then "square it up" with an extra 6 at the end. I really can't believe they are doing mathematical gymnastics on the fly. They've got to be using another method. As I said before, I have a feeling they are internally counting 2 sets of three "2's". Which has the advantage of being easy to do and also providing a stable metronomic beat which frees their brain up to explore some very exotic falsetas on the guitar. I don't know if this is true or not, but I certainly know that this counting 3,6,8,10,12 isn't working for me, except on the falsetas which follow that course. cheers Ron

zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 12:44:31)
quote: I really can't believe they are doing mathematical gymnastics on the fly. They've got to be using another method. As I said before, I have a feeling they are internally counting 2 sets of three "2's". Which has the advantage of being easy to do and also providing a stable metronomic beat which frees their brain up to explore some very exotic falsetas on the guitar. I just realized, you guys are in Europe! [8D] The above is all it comes down to...3 times 2 (one set is all that's required to represent bulerías, and then it can be repeated as needed) is probably the most complex mathematical equation our species can manage without intellectualizing or using numbers, and it keeps you in perfect bulerías compás. If there's any alternative that works as consistently and efficiently...and there might be one...I'd love to know about it. Estela 'Zata'

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zata -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 12:59:39)
quote: Do you, yourself, hear twos when the the palmeros are clapping and the guitarist is tapping his foot por al golpe ( -XX-XX-XX-XX ) as someone noted on Paco de Lucia bulerias of the 1960s-1980s? Andy, I can't speak for Ron, but in my own personal experience (which is all any of us can speak about with any true authority), once you hear the twos, it becomes literally impossible not to hear them from that point on. Call it a 'crutch' if you want, but that's part of life, finding trick ways of overcoming complex situations. Estela 'Zata'

Jon Boyes -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 12:59:48)
Hey Ron, this has got me thinking. I can't wait to have a play around with flamenco master, program in a soft accent on 12, 2, 4 etc and see how that feels alongside the different main palmas patterns. This has some interesting possibilities. For complex falsetas I've always used the 12, 3,6,8 10 default on FM because its the pattern I'm most familiar with. The trouble is, when learning something with weird timing (eg Tomatito again), obviously I have to slow FM right down to a sensible practice speed, but the main problem then is that the accents are too far apart to be much use in timing the thing. Lining up against, and playing with, a regular two seems a much simpler solution. As I said before, I tend to tap my foot in twos anyway when I'm playing, but didn't think of trying to learn tricky stuff against twos in the first place. Jon

Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 13:32:35)
quote: Do you, yourself, hear twos when the the palmeros are clapping and the guitarist is tapping his foot por al golpe ( -XX-XX-XX-XX ) as someone noted on Paco de Lucia bulerias of the 1960s-1980s? Well, they don't audibly leap out at you from the loudspeakers. I suppose now, I can internally hear 2's. But that's not as a casual listener, but as somebody who is trying to get to grips with Bulerias and make sense of how to play it on guitar. So this 2's issue for me is entirely pragmatic. I want to improve my timing and control within Bulerias, especially in those weird Jerez falsetas I mentioned. I'm just at the very beginning of making some sense out of them now. When I was at school, our Mechanics teacher said "If a shaft rotates at 1 revolution per second, then how long does it take to cover half a revolution?" "Half a second", we all replied. "Wrong!", he said..." Due to uneven friction, the shaft could cover half a revolution in 0.55 of a second and the remaining half in 0.45 of a second, but you would still read 1 revolution per second". This is the effect I think can happen when internally counting 3,6,8,10,12. Each 12 may seem to work out, or even each 6. But it's what's going on inbetween that may be shaky. That's why I think the 2's counting method has advantages, especially in dealing with those weird, meandering falsetas. Doesn't make it a piece of cake though... It's still difficult, but I think persevering with this may bear fruit over the next few months. cheers Ron

Escribano -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 13:35:51)
quote: If a shaft rotates at 1 revolution per second, then how long does it take to cover half a revolution Is that an accelerating or slowing shaft? [:D]

Miguel de Maria -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 13:42:51)
Actually, Jon, this proves that flamenco master is useless. We just have to use a metronome and use the "twos" method. He should have made it for Mac! :)

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Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 15:04:51)
quote: Is that an accelerating or slowing shaft? No, one rotating at 1 revolution per second. [:D][:D]

Ron.M -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 15:15:55)
quote: Actually, Jon, this proves that flamenco master is useless. We just have to use a metronome and use the "twos" method. The Flamenco Master metronome, is conveniently laid out in two rows of six beats, (in a "University Challenge" format LOL!....only UK viewers will understand), unlike the other commercial metronomes, which shows the compás as a clock or as a constantly changing flashing number, which IMO is useless. This was intentional, and has advantages in helping make a mental map of the compás. It can also provide a steady beat of 2's if required, while a visually highlighted display of preferred accented beats can be programmed so you can see as well as hear the interaction. So it still has it's uses! cheers Ron

duende -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 18:04:17)
Why do you call it Two´s? Buleria is a 3/4 time. Or 12/4. And that makes 6 taps in a 12 cycle or 3+3 why call it two´s ? It only makes matters more confusing. It´s not 1 2 1 2 1 2 etc it´s 1 2 3 4 5 6. Henrik

Jim Opfer -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 18:20:24)
Zata, Compas beat 5, just seems so natural. If you're feeling two's the whole time, how do you know were to stop? Cheers Jim.

Escribano -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 18:32:12)
quote: how do you know were to stop? By what you are playing. The clues are in the music, no? I cannot play Bulerias so I am not really qualified on this one but listening to a lot of Soleares, Tangos and Seguiriyas, I learn where it should stop, eventually[;)]. Do accomplished dancers or singers count? Isn't counting only a learning aid? A standard metronome doesn't count, never did, it just keeps the tempo.

Miguel de Maria -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 18:46:36)
Henrik, haven't you been reading this thread? The point is that zata thinks that bulerias is actually in two's. The accented 3 is actually felt as a syncopation from this.

Escribano -> 12 bar blues and counting (Jul. 8 2004 18:47:47)
Does this help? Blues keeps a 4/4 tempo but tells a 12-bar story. quote: In this lesson we will be exploring blues piano or more specifically the 12 bar blues progression for piano. We will be working in 4/4 time which means that each "bar" or "measure" will have 4 beats. This gives the 12 bar blues progression a total of 48 beats (12 X 4 = 48). Briefly, so as not to get confusing, a beat for our purposes is one tap of the foot. This would give you 4 foot taps for each bar or measure. It goes like this...1,2,3,4 (one bar or measure), 1,2,3,4 (our second bar or measure), 1,2,3,4 (third bar or measure), etc. for 12 bars. Notice we start over after 4 beats. We do not count 1,2,3,4...5,6,7,8, we only give each bar or measure 4 beats or foot taps.

Jim Opfer -> RE: 2s in bulerias examples (Jul. 8 2004 18:51:54)
I'm replying to myself, because it has gone a bit crazy! Zata's point is that Buleria COMPAS is a steady stream of twos and Todd's buleria whilst he hits 12's, he misses the two's and therefore he's not in compas. I haven't listened to it, so I don't know if that's correct. I know however, that this notion of twos is far too simplistic and whilst it might work for cante where the singer could perhaps drift in and out on the back of compas, it's not the full picture for guitarist, dancer and palmero who have to hold compas. It is however a very interesting idea and Ron helps explain it in guitar terms when he reminds us of those long wondering Jerez falsetas (not a quote) and askes, 'how do they do that?'. So I think Zata and Ron have contributed something very interesting to Foro and I'll investigate it further to see if it helps me. Cheers Jim.

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