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Practicing but getting Worse
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michel
Posts: 315
Joined: Apr. 14 2008
From: france
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 RE: Practicing but getting Worse (in reply to John O.)
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quote:
Another thing one doesn't notice is lack of concentration due to too much repitition. Ever read a book and realize you've just read a whole page yet don't know what you've just read? Maybe try practising something new for a while.
that's also my problem, i'm working on Manuel Granados Flamenco’s guitar didactic handbook. vol. 1-4 i practice his solea, OK eventhough the difficulty level increases rapidly i'm not satisifed - i read and play the same 4 or 6 pages since weeks, so i really should know them by heart now, but without the book i'm only able to play 50% of the content, always the same fingering mistakes etc...
always playing with the tabs in front of you leads to memorization problems, because you're not so concentrated as you think, you only repeat, as john said.
In the middle of 2008 i had no great musical inspiration, so i decided to pratice technique, technique, technique... getting a little more confident i decided to take a lesson with mariano martin who is really a great player...
i was nervous and tried to play as hard and fast as i could: he looked at me, eyes wide open and speechless: after a while he said: "what the hell are you doing here? do you seriously want to break your tendons/fingers ?
please stop thinking that every player has to be as fast as paco, forget this!
play something what's in your range and have fun"
i was really confused, but it opened my eyes, since then i focus more on the music again, of course the "Practicing but getting Worse"-problem also concerns repertoire pieces.but if i play a picado run in a musical context, in a piece i like at that moment, i won't pay that much attention if the picado was a little bit slower or faster, i also pay attention to the aire of the whole piece. anyway i really understand the frustration with things you practice over weeks and then they get worse. I agree with Ron's and and John's thoughts about this.
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Date Jan. 21 2009 1:07:03
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John O.
Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany
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RE: Practicing but getting Worse (in reply to michel)
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quote:
mariano martin who is really a great player
I'll be at his workshop this weekend, looking forward 
I haven't looked into the book to be honest, but could it be you start and stick with pieces that are too long?
The trick for me is to use the tab to only work on enough that I could repeat right away from short term memory without looking. That's my repetition block. Then I go block by block. When I play longer pieces from memory and it doesn't work, I try to find out the spots where it doesn't work and repeat only those blocks.
To keep from getting bored I work with a metronome, constantly building speed to the original, with beats set to 4ths, 8ths, 16ths etc., try working compás inbetween the repetitions to see if I could fit it into my normal repertoire.
There are things you can do to keep it interesting. I find my technique is at its peak when I spend lots of time playing things I really enjoy, am excited about repeating, like a current favorite song. That keeps the brain most active, I think.
_____________________________
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
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Date Jan. 21 2009 1:33:26
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Practicing but getting Worse (in reply to Arash)
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Hi Arash,
I've got an idea that has a lot to do with things that others have already mentioned (muscle memory, playing from memory, etc.) I hope it's not too simple, obvious or just plain weird  . Here goes:
I don't know about other people, but when I try to understand something, I turn my mind toward it and try to match it with some possible explanation in my head. When I find a match, I look at it from a few different angles, and if it still matches, that becomes my understanding of the idea. When I want to use that idea for my own purposes, I "reproduce" it from the blueprint in my head. So what I'm trying to say here is that when we do something well, we're probably using our minds in a different way than we did when we first learned about that thing. So, at some point, the blueprint has to change accordingly.
For the guitar (and lots of other stuff), this usually means changing from, "What's it supposed to be?" to "What does it feel like?"
When I say "feel," I'm talking about the feeling of moving your fingers across the strings. This idea of feeling falsetas in your hands rather than visualizing them in your head becomes really clear when you learn rasgueados. There's always a point where you suddenly get the idea, and you think, "Oh, is that all there is to it?"
So, IMO, it's a good idea to concentrate on the feeling of the music in your hands, and keep to a minimum all the mental "performance notes" (preparing the corresponding finger for a ligado, for example).
But reducing dependence on thought is easier said than done, at least for me. In addition to this, I realize far too often that I'm too impatient to warm up properly, and I'm playing just beyond my limits, to the point where I'm not feeling in detail what my hands are doing. It's just a blur, and it works for a while, but fatigue sets in because I'm not playing efficiently.
That's just my little theory about what I might need to work on; hope it sheds some light on your problem!
So please think about everything I've said, and then do your best to forget it!
_____________________________
Be here now.
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Date Jan. 21 2009 8:28:35
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Practicing but getting Worse (in reply to NormanKliman)
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quote:
at some point, the blueprint has to change accordingly.
For the guitar (and lots of other stuff), this usually means changing from, "What's it supposed to be?" to "What does it feel like?"
feelings (as in physical sensations) are history, they are feedback generated by movements, like the light from stars that by the time we see it the star isn't there anymore.
movements are initiated by messages from the brain to the muscles. when muscles contract feedback is sent back to the brain that gives information about the movement. by the time they reach the brain the movement has already started, and may already have finished.... you can't use this feedback or "feelings" to initiate movements, unless the brain is telling the muscles to make the movements that will feel a certain way.... but if you want to improve, the movements have to improve, so they will feel different, so using feelings as guidance doesn't really work, which is one reason why sometimes people get worse with practise.
to try to explain, if you play not very well and it feels a certain way, to improve you must do it differently, which will feel different.... but if you practise a lot you get used to things feeling a certain way, and then if you change something (for the better) it will feel wrong, so you will revert back to your old (not so good) way of doing it. a very clever man once called this "the lure of the familiar"
to make things worse, if you are "tense" and you practise, that "tension" will interfere with the efficient movements of your hands, but the more you practise the more tense you will get and the worse your playing will get. and if you put more effort in you will probably only increase the tension
the answer is to get a clearer idea of what you want to happen, and to continually refine that, and not to rely on you feelings to tell you if you are doing it or not
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Date Jan. 21 2009 13:22:40
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Practicing but getting Worse (in reply to mark indigo)
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Hi Mark,
quote:
you can't use this feedback or "feelings" to initiate movements, unless the brain is telling the muscles to make the movements that will feel a certain way....
I never said "feelings" and certainly nothing like "rely on you feelings to tell you if you are doing it or not." I think you might have read my message a little too quickly. Understandable, since it's so long.
I'm talking about focusing on the feel/sensation of the guitar in your hands in order to start associating certain finger movements with certain sounds (rather than associating the score with finger movements). When I'm having trouble with ideas that I think I've learned, I nearly always find that I'm focusing on something else, usually a technical detail involving one finger or another, and my right hand tends to drift out of ideal position due to the distraction. When the whole thing flows, the sensation is different, maybe because it's easier to subordinate everything to the compás. I dunno.
quote:
so using feelings as guidance doesn't really work
Well, the idea I'm trying to explain works for me.
quote:
which is one reason why sometimes people get worse with practise.
Oh dear. We don't want that to happen.
quote:
to make things worse, if you are "tense" and you practise, that "tension" will interfere with the efficient movements of your hands, but the more you practise the more tense you will get and the worse your playing will get. and if you put more effort in you will probably only increase the tension
Oh my, that sounds terrible!
quote:
the answer is to get a clearer idea of what you want to happen, and to continually refine that, and not to rely on you feelings to tell you if you are doing it or not
Yes, one has to fully understand all the movements and correct placement of the fingers, but I'm a little more interested in what happens after that stage, and I assume that this thread is not about learning but why Arash might not be benefitting from what he's already learned. It's already in his head and in his hands. Assuming that he's playing the right notes and using his fingers correctly, all that remains is his perception of that knowledge: You have to feel in order to groove (if you don't, you're welcome to tell me about it).
I think examining one's perception of knowledge is one way to "continually refine," as you say.
_____________________________
Be here now.
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Date Jan. 21 2009 14:25:23
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Practicing but getting Worse (in reply to NormanKliman)
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Hi Norman,
um.... i hope i wasn't misunderstanding you, and i'm slightly anxious to avoid any kind of "misunderstanding" developing, i didn't think i had read your post over-quickly, and it wasn't overly long (compared to some of my waffle-fests ) but when you said;
quote:
I never said "feelings"
i have to point out just for the record that you did use the words "feel" and "feeling" several times here
quote:
For the guitar (and lots of other stuff), this usually means changing from, "What's it supposed to be?" to "What does it feel like?"
When I say "feel," I'm talking about the feeling of moving your fingers across the strings. This idea of feeling falsetas in your hands rather than visualizing them in your head becomes really clear when you learn rasgueados.
all i was trying to point out is that feelings (as in physical sensations) come after the event, they are feedback, so how can you use them for initiating a movement?
i believe that you can't!
i wasn't trying to suggest or imply that you said "rely on you feelings to tell you if you are doing it or not." and if what you do works for you that's great, DON'T CHANGE IT ( ), but what Arash is doing doesn't seem to be working, and i know that when arts students (musicians, actors etc.) and/or athletes are exhorted to "feel" movements they often DO something extra, something unnecessary, and often something detrimental to their performance in order to feel something.
an example, if someone is told to "feel" the strings, often they will PRESS HARDER, in order to "feel" more (because more pressure requires more muscle activity, which will then generate the desired increase in proprioceptive feedback), and i'm sure you would agree that pressing the strings harder is not the way to go (unless they are buzzing 'cos they aren't being pressed hard enough, which isn't the case here).
when, say, picado, or arpegio, or abanico, or whatever is going really well and fast, i can't possibly "feel" every tiny movement i make, the movements are (hopefully ) too small and too fast, better to program the movements slowly, and then file in the brain under "picado" or "arpegio" or " abanico" or whatever, and then just ask for that.....
i keep putting "feel" in quote marks, becuase there are so many different meanings to that word, so that might be the potential source of misunderstanding....
such as when you say
quote:
You have to feel in order to groove
i understand this use of "feel" to be almost entirely different to physical sensations/proprioception.... feeling rhythms is not proprioception, but feeling physical movements is.... different use of "feel"
in order to use proprioception to "feel" a rhythm you would have to DO something in that rhythm, and "feel" the physical sensation of the thing you're doing.... but to do that you have to a) know the rhythm and b) plan and execute a movement or series of movements in that rhythm, so do you see that those "feelings"/physical sensations come after all that?
and my understanding is that when we "feel" a groove what we are doing is a) (knowing the rhythm on some level), you know, like when you can just hear/"feel" where the accents are without counting.
notice i just used "feel" synonymously with "hear"
i "feel" like having something to eat now - another different meaning of "feel"
i "feel" sad when things go wrong - another different meaning of "feel"
is this making any sense?  sorry, long post!
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Date Jan. 22 2009 10:14:39
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NormanKliman
Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007
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RE: Practicing but getting Worse (in reply to mark indigo)
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Hi Mark,
quote:
um.... i hope i wasn't misunderstanding you, and i'm slightly anxious to avoid any kind of "misunderstanding" developing
Me too, no problem on my end, thanks for the clarification. I'm just surprised that you use the word "feelings," with an s on the end. It's an entirely different concept (emotional reaction to something), although you specified in parentheses "physical sensations," so maybe they mean the same thing for you. In any case, I think we're talking about two different ideas (either that, or one of us is arguing in his spare time ).
quote:
i know that when arts students (musicians, actors etc.) and/or athletes are exhorted to "feel" movements they often DO something extra, something unnecessary, and often something detrimental to their performance in order to feel something.
Ah, okay, I see what you're getting at, but it's not what I was talking about.
quote:
all i was trying to point out is that feelings (as in physical sensations) come after the event, they are feedback, so how can you use them for initiating a movement?
i believe that you can't!
As a point of reference in order to initiate that movement in a certain way. It has to do with involving the present in the process of visualization in order to estimate more accurately the effort needed to perform a given task. I could have summed it up a lot better by saying that we learn with our heads but we play with our hands.
quote:
when, say, picado, or arpegio, or abanico, or whatever is going really well and fast, i can't possibly "feel" every tiny movement i make
I'm surprised to hear that. On good days, when everything's coming out right, it's always seemed a lot easier for me, almost effortless (depends on the falseta ). Like when you slow down the metronome or something. The idea I was talking about has to do with limiting the scope of your perception to get rid of distractions. I think that might be a way to heighten the sensation of what your hands are doing.
Anyway, maybe it's just me, and my attention tends to wander or something. Sometimes big theories like this only reflect what the theorizer needs to work on!
_____________________________
Be here now.
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Date Jan. 22 2009 12:32:06
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Practicing but getting Worse (in reply to joseglez)
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quote:
After many hours of practice my playing has been gettting worse. I have a strange pain in the index finger of my right hand, so bad I think I have tendonitis. My hand definitely feels clumsier and I need longer warm-ups than usual.
you are probably using too much effort. if you have muscles turned on that you don't need to sit and play guitar (neck, shoulders, back, legs, feet etc. etc.) you might experience this as "tension"
on the other hand, if you are using muscles you don't need all the time for everything you do (it's quite common), then it will "feel" "normal" ie. it won't register as "tension" so you might not know you're doing it....
if you spending hours warming up and practising and you are using too much effort/force in your finger, hands, arms etc. you are going to be practising the unnecessary muscle tension.... this could be the cause of the problem and the source of the pain.
in the first instance stop practising and rest, see a doctor, maybe apply ice to get any inflammation down ("itis" means inflammation, so tendonitis is inflammation of tendon), then alternate ice with warm water or hot water bottle to get/keep the blood flowing.... maybe see an alternative/complimentary healthcare person like acupuncturist.... i once jammed my carpel tunnel and a very good cranial osteopath un-jammed it for me.... i've also had other tendon troubles in the past but pretty much gotten things sorted out eventually, feel free to pm me
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Date Jan. 23 2009 5:27:16
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