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Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

The Forum

Hi,
I have received a serious message from the Site Owner, Simon, saying he is not happy with the state of affairs here.

Can I remind folk that although Simon does not take part in the Forum anymore, he keeps paying for it and maintaining it out of a sense of loyalty to the friends he made here over the years.

His PM box is getting bombarded with complaints and reports of abuse and I think it's only a matter of time before he gets sick of seeing his time and money being used to keep it going.

He also has reminded me that this is a WHOLLY PRIVATELY OWNED AND FUNDED SITE and as so, has the right to REFUSE admission or to EXPEL anyone from participating in the Forum at the discretion of the site owner, with NO explanation required.

I have also received a complaint this morning that the "scoring" system is being played around with for laughs to annoy people.

Look folks.

This monkey business and provocative posting etc has to STOP.

Otherwise we will all be logging on somewhere else.

Think about it.

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 0:18:37

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 5 votes

COME ON GUYS.

STOP IT NOW. STOP BEING PROVOCATIVE, STOP TROLLING AND STOP WHINING,

JUST STOP IT NOW.

There are quite a few members who need to take a SERIOUS break from the foro. Do it please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If not for your own sake, the for the good of the foro.

Come on. This is totally ridiculous, that we have to be here again after 6 month.

PEACE

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 0:31:49

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 2 votes

In the US, they say that driving is a privilege, not a right. I think this foro should be taken in the same way because we tend to think more of freedom of speech than responsible use.

I hate to be throwing around absolute terms here, but IMO the troublemakers are NEVER going to change. They thrive on attention and the forum is just a way for them to get it. For others, the forum is a lot more than that, and the two interests are incompatible. Egocentric posts are something that we have to put up with, but taunting and disrepectful messages should not be tolerated.

If we want the forum to last, it is going to have to be used responsibly. Ten years ago, I watched troublemakers run the Temple University forum into the ground, and I'm seeing exactly the same behavior now on this forum. I say ban anyone who doesn't know how to behave themselves. The important issue of freedom of speech IS NOT AT STAKE HERE.

This is like a bar, open to the public but you have to know how to behave, rather than a hospital, where anyone has the right to be allowed admission. In that sense, NOBODY has a right to be disrespectful, no matter how long they've been a member. Following the analogy, troublemakers always show up in any given bar, it's just a question of time. After a couple of warnings, someone has to throw the drunk out.

_____________________________

Be here now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 1:04:42

Ailsa

Posts: 2277
Joined: Apr. 17 2007
From: South East England

RE: The Forum is a privilege (in reply to NormanKliman) 1 votes

A lot of sense there Norman - yes this Forum is a privilege, and we shouldn't take it for granted.

quote:

This is like a bar, open to the public but you have to know how to behave, rather than a hospital, where anyone has the right to be allowed admission.

Actually even in the health service in the UK there is a limit. We have a Zero Tolerance policy. In rare cases patients can only be treated in police premises with other people present. Their poor behaviour has meant we have to put staff wellbeing first, even if that behaviour is a result of their illness. Having been on the wrong end of threats myself I'm glad of that.

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http://www.myspace.com/flamencojourney

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 2:34:36

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 1 votes

quote:

Look folks.
This monkey business and provocative posting etc has to STOP.
Otherwise we will all be logging on somewhere else.
Think about it.
Ron

I am afraid I had not fully grasped the magnitude of the problem, Ron. That would be such pity, if this Forum came to an end.

As regretful a state of affairs as it is for all involved, i cannot disagree with strictly applying the few rules governing this site, even when that could entail expelling a member.

Hopefully it wll not be necessary, and people will weigh their options cautiously.

Written a wall during the 70ties turmoil:

"When conversation turns into confrontation, who provoked whom?"

_____________________________

gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 3:58:17

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 2 votes

Edit:

Sorry for all the trouble Ron

Hope we all can behave better in the future.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 4:11:00

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 4 votes

It would be even easyer and IMO better to simply remove the scoring system. It has absolutely no possitive effect on the foro on the contrary. The best example is that this thread has been voted negative.... Someone hasn´t understood what is going on. or maybe its someone who dont care if the foro gets closed down

Also, because you volunteer as an administrator doesnt mean that you like being a judge or a policeman, so I totally understand Rons attitude.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 4:17:53

mrMagenta

Posts: 942
Joined: Oct. 25 2006
From: Sweden

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M)

The scoring system would be a decent gadget if the only option would be to give +1 in score, that way people could use it to silently show appreciation. to get some points feels good after uploading a clip or writing a long answer on some subject. sure the positive only variation could still cause problems if people would use it to show approval of bullying etc, but I don't think it would cause things to get quite so inflamed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 5:47:54

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Forum (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 1 votes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Also, because you volunteer as an administrator doesnt mean that you like being a judge or a policeman, so I totally understand Rons attitude.

if he doesnt want to be admin thats ok of course. But whats happening here doesnt seem correct to me. Its the work of an admin to deal with the members. Maybe more admins would solve the problem.

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 5:53:43

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M)

I don't have a clue as to how the scoring system works, and I really don't have a clue why anybody would care about a scoring system for posts. The quality of people's posts is totally a matter of the reaction in a person's brain when they read someones's post, and the quality of the post can best be judged by the quality of the replies a post gets. Everybody can figure that out for themselves. I vote to abolish ratings/scores as useless and subject to gaming and abuse.

runner

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 5:57:48

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 1 votes

Really, sometimes it is good too take a short break, see the things from the perspective of others (be it Admin or anyone else whom you are arguing with), and then decide what to write and push the send button. I admit, sometimes it is difficult when you are involved but if we all would do that, there would be a lot less conflict.

At the end we all like eachother the one or other way

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 5:59:59

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Forum (in reply to Arash) 1 votes

Arash, what did you smoke??

Just kidding! Im just surprised about this thread here. I mean why dont send the so called "troublemakers" a message to stop provocations? Why confront every single member to close the forum? Again and again?

_____________________________

Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 6:04:46

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: The Forum (in reply to XXX) 1 votes

quote:

if he doesnt want to be admin thats ok of course. But whats happening here doesnt seem correct to me. Its the work of an admin to deal with the members. Maybe more admins would solve the problem.

that being said deniz, were not baby-sitters for you either, the majority of members are adults, and there is certain amount of responsibilty on people here to act their age. whether a person wishes to conform to this or not is there own choice.

furthermore, there are people on the forum (they know who they are) who exacerbate the situations, get their can of petrol, throw it on the thread and kick back with their bucket of popcorn and watch the fireworks.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 6:21:22

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: The Forum (in reply to XXX)

quote:

I mean why dont send the so called "troublemakers" a message to stop provocations?

Because the troublemakers would most likely make these messages public and start more trouble.

I don't see a problem with the admin first quieting a situation down between both parties no matter who's at fault. It's like when my mom used to yell at my brother and me "I don't care who started it, SHUT UP!" It worked.

Afterwards the situation needs to be looked at closer to solve further problems, but putting the fire out quickly is the best way to go, like how Simon used to lock threads in the past.

And again, if somebody on the other end of the world wants to get on your nerves or make fun of you - SO WHAT? You have that in school, in the workplace, in a grocery store, on the freeway. If you can ignore that, why can't you ignore it from somebody you don't even really know in a forum? I just act like I'm stupid and pretend I don't get it, that usually really annoys people

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 6:26:23

John O.

Posts: 1723
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: The Forum (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

there are people on the forum (they know who they are) who exacerbate the situations, get their can of petrol, throw it on the thread and kick back with their bucket of popcorn and watch the fireworks

In case you mean me with our new radical member, guilty as charged. I stopped after a warning though!

_____________________________

Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 6:28:49

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: The Forum (in reply to XXX) 1 votes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Deniz

Arash, what did you smoke??
Just kidding! Im just surprised about this thread here. I mean why dont send the so called "troublemakers" a message to stop provocations? Why confront every single member to close the forum? Again and again?

Hey Deniz, i am smoking a Marlboro Medium only (unfortunately

)

In fact, in my first message in this thread i wrote exactly the same thing as you (ask Ron), but then edited the message and thought to myself, what would you do if you were Admin for 5 years and if you have been gone through all these things again and again. Would you be the perfect behaving robot Admin who would write everyone a letter or would you just be tired and write something like Ron did?...... know what i mean? Ok, maybe it is not the perfect way an Admin should handle this but you have to look at it as a whole and not just a new problem.

Anyways, we are all human and and can not be perfect in all situations.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 6:34:15

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: The Forum (in reply to henrym3483) 1 votes

quote:

ORIGINAL: henrym3483

that being said deniz, were not baby-sitters for you either, the majority of members are adults

In any case you are not my babysitter. I have never sent Ron or Simon any negative message concerning the forum or its members. The foro works fine, some heated discussions here and there, but there are no "real" trolls that ONLY want to cause trouble.
Isnt it correct that the foro survived much more severe and longer lasting confrontations than the recent ones?

Look, everytime something happens there pops up a message "everybody calm or we will close this forum"... openly, for everybody to read, as if !everybody! would be a problem.

These things are done over pms, if that doesnt help, you can close threads, delete messages, even ban people. Yes, thats the whole purpose of having admins. And i want to add, mostly it IS calm here. Ok, I dont know how many messages you as admins get (maybe too much), but even then, one can handle the situation a bit different. (My opinion).

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 6:34:16

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Forum (in reply to XXX)

Ok i asked to be deleted so that i cant read this stuff anymore so that i wont voice my opinion anymore.....that is the only option you have left me with

Its not fair to blame this people for this...if there is a situation is direct result of how you have dealt with it for the last 5 years..its not like you didnt know about it..

i asked a million times that you give it some consideration and warned a million times it will be right here...its comed up a million times before ...why is that ? everyone is tired of it coming up....but why is it still coming up ? could it be the problem is still there ?

this is the result of you not dealing with it, plain and simple

u keep telling everyone to take responsibilitie for theyr own actions but you arent taking any for the way you allowed this to get so far.

you are the one dragging everyone in by blackmailing them with closure of the forum...there is no reason for all this...it was a peacefull thread, noone insulted anyone ...u just dont like it cause it shows plain and clear that you didnt deal with the situation..

u might as well delete me cause il never accept your " oh i am not a lawyer" explonations...u dont have to be lawyer ...all u have to do is recognise that its a problem, look at it closely, find the source and impose some strict rules on both of us, enforce them, take some actions to suit the situation..

maybe theres no excuse for the way i got upset and angry and bitter with the situation (thats to do with the fact that you havent taken any actions) but theres absoluteley no excuse for the way u have dealt with it...

for me for the forum for everybody...there are no forum enemies here

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 7:24:11

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: The Forum (in reply to Florian) 1 votes

Flo,

neither i or ron am going to delete you, you are always welcome here.

as i said, if you do not want to read Todds comments block him on your account.

the logic of the situation is and the options open in my opinion are below

1) block each other messages (simple and to the point)

2) ban you, ban todd or both of you (im not a person in favour of banning)

3) learn to deal with it like adults and ignore each others comments,

4) do not post on each others threads.

5) arrange a personal truce, and if needs be temporaily block the first person who breaks the truce either by a direct or indirect venomous comment. therefore at a later time you cannot say you were not the author of your own account being blocked.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 7:50:20

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: The Forum (in reply to XXX)

quote:

In any case you are not my babysitter. I have never sent Ron or Simon any negative message concerning the forum or its members. The foro works fine, some heated discussions here and there, but there are no "real" trolls that ONLY want to cause trouble.

just to clarify, i meant "you" in the plural sense, as in all members.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 7:51:29

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Forum (in reply to henrym3483)

well thats all thats been done before Henry minus the banning

has it solved it ?

how about make some strict rules to me and todkk and first that brakes them is off ? its what i have been asking for 5 years...noone that dosent do anything wrong has anything to fear

all this things set the stage for it happening again and beeing right back here again for the millionth time just like last time...at some point moderators need to step in and make some decisions ..

u know this mate...before you were admin you were very much in the opinion that something should be done about this...i have it on one of the old bullying threads
i am not sure whats changed your view...perhaps u are bored of the subject ? so am I ...so why is it still coming up ?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 7:54:47

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 1 votes

It's so wearisome, it's always the same people rehashing the same thing over
and over.

Same inablility to refrain from typing that last word.

It's still a good forum, and you would think after the last disaster, that lessons
would have been learned. But NO ...

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 8:05:38

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: The Forum (in reply to henrym3483) 1 votes

quote:

do not post on each others threads.

Is there any way to keep either of these two from posting on each other’s threads? It seems to me that this would be best. I am sure Flo could agree not to post on Todd's threads, but to expect a person to ignore hostile posts in a thread about their playing and the ensuing argument is too much to ask--at least on an emotional level.

I also like the way that Simon locked threads just as the argument was beginning. The longer these threads continue the more people want to say.

quote:

"When conversation turns into confrontation, who provoked whom?"

As an attorney you make your living in an adversarial context. Are you saying that the person who seeks justice by confronting injustice is as guilty as the person who caused the injustice in the first place?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 8:10:15

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: The Forum (in reply to Florian)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian

how about make some strict rules to me and todkk and first that brakes them is off ?

FORCED (NOT Optional - Which would mean through Admin) Green Button for both of you.
Simple but effective.
You wont be able to read eachothers messages anymore, even if you would want to.

The only effective solution imo.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 8:12:37

Florian

Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: The Forum (in reply to Arash)

quote:

Simple but effective.
You wont be able to read eachothers messages anymore, even if you would want to.

but its not., cause u see it on quotes, u see it on others reaction...still the same abuse u just done see the words initially and instead of it beeing done to you its done to everyone else about you.

I have tried it

u block me and see how long you will leave me blocked on your thread when i replie to one of your audio posts or when you see others reacting to something i say...see how long you resist

what exactly is unfair about expelling someone that brakes rules ? its alot more fair then not leaving someone who wants to stay just as much any other option but to leave

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 8:15:46

n85ae

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 1 votes

Flo,

Bluntly it's a lot your fault. No matter what - you have a complete
inability to stop typing. You're always having to explain yourself, or explain
what the other person did, etc. You are always needing to add some
comment, when what is really needed ... Is to simply say nothing, and be
quiet.

Serious if you post a single reply, you'll make my point. :)

No offense intended.

Regards,
Jeff

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 8:25:04

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M) 1 votes

Well, then i dont know what to do.

There is always something to complain ("i can see it in others reactions etc.")

You want a 100% perfect solution where there is no such a choise, flo. There is no perfect solution for both of you.
You will have to do your part also and not only following a rule.

It is also too much to ask to make a special complex rule only for you 2.

Hell, i dont know anymore, lets ban everyone else except you 2.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 8:29:05

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: The Forum (in reply to Arash) 2 votes

Henry has had to go back to the to Uni just now to finish off some work, but will be back later.

How about this then:

ANYONE seeing a post which offends THEM (ie directed PERSONALLY to THEM and NOT a FRIEND or anything) should report it to me and Henry.

(Do NOT bother Simon he has stuff to do other that sort out petty squabbling.)

DO NOT REPLY TO THE POST. This is where the trouble starts

One of us will deal with it and contact both parties concerned.

DON'T ANYONE ELSE REPLY TO IT. This is important.

Anyone replying to it will be just as guilty of causing trouble as the original poster.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 8:33:17

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M)

I used this on the flywheel bolts when I replaced the clutch on one my cars—worked like a charm!

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2009 8:33:19

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: The Forum (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

How about this then:

ANYONE seeing a post which offends THEM (ie directed PERSONALLY to THEM and NOT a FRIEND or anything) should report it to me and Henry.

(Do NOT bother Simon he has stuff to do other that sort out petty squabbling.)

DO NOT REPLY TO THE POST. This is where the trouble starts

One of us will deal with it and contact both parties concerned.

DON'T ANYONE ELSE REPLY TO IT. This is important.

Anyone else replying to it will be just as guilty of causing trouble as the original poster.

cheers,

Ron